Achtung Panzer v Command Ops

[flibby]

Iv been a player of command ops since HTTR and have only recently come across AP - not sure how I missed it for so long!

It appears to me that AP has a huge amount of improvements over command ops:

1. MUCH more reasonably priced for a company also small, and who do work for their countries military too.

2. Realism added being able to switch to a 3d mode to actually see the lie of the land.

3. Ability to operate at operational and tactical level, whilst also carrying unit losses forward.

4. Finally, huge community and regular DLCs.

why is there the element of snobishness on here about the game given all of these points? Do grogs just want to justify spending vast sums on a failing game instead?

Nick

[aaatoysandmore]

Command Ops by 100%. I own them both and Achtung Panzer didn't last 30 minutes on my computer. Most horrible GUI I ever saw. Even Panzer Command: Osfront is better. But command OPS can't be topped imho.

[Missouri_Rebel]

I'm a huge fan of APOS. The GUI is a turn off for many and it is pretty complex considering the massive battlefields and operations phase. But Command Ops is most certainly not a failing game. Maybe it's a language barrier, but CO has a pretty large following. Besides, comparing the two is of the old adage, like apples to oranges.

Plenty of room for both on my hard drive.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

Plenty of room for both on my hard drive.

Likewise. And I don't know where you get 'failing' game, either.

The games are two different for a straight either/or IMHO, anyway.

[aaatoysandmore]

I'm a huge fan of APOS

 
I find it interesting you chose those letters to descibe Achtung. lol

[Missouri_Rebel]

Lol. Curse you

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: flibby

Iv been a player of command ops since HTTR and have only recently come across AP - not sure how I missed it for so long!

It appears to me that AP has a huge amount of improvements over command ops:

lol, no.

ORIGINAL: flibby

1. MUCH more reasonably priced for a company also small, and who do work for their countries military too.

No. It's only reasonable priced if you live in a developing country, because you're not funding Western privilege while having your work treated as many times worse. You're not living in a developing country. Your conception of "reasonable prices" is based on exploitation of work of individuals from developing country.
When you buy Command Ops, you're buying from individuals that are treated as your equals. When you buy Theatre of War, you're buying from individuals who are treated like they are 4x worse than you.

In other words, in economy where individuals are treated like equals and judged only by the quality of their work, you'd have to pay over 100$ to play a new Theatre of War, not 35$.'

It sounds like you need to check your privilege. Maybe you should move to Russia and also work for "reasonable price", eh?

ORIGINAL: flibby

2. Realism added being able to switch to a 3d mode to actually see the lie of the land.

What added Realism? There's nothing realistic about it unless you'd have to put your commander persona in a car and get there physically and risk getting shot.
It's pure eye-candy.

ORIGINAL: flibby

3. Ability to operate at operational and tactical level, whilst also carrying unit losses forward.

It's not an improvement as it decreases the realism of command. Tactical wargames don't need operational minigames.

ORIGINAL: flibby

4. Finally, huge community and regular DLCs.

For a game about watching tanks exploding? I'm shocked.

ORIGINAL: flibby

why is there the element of snobishness on here about the game given all of these points? Do grogs just want to justify spending vast sums on a failing game instead?

What "failing game"? I moved to Airborne Assault/Command Ops series after other developers have failed to provide me with consistent scale and semi-decent command & control. Command Ops still doesn't have different scale minigames and still has command delays, subordinate AI, etc.
Which can't be said about most of other wargames.

And there are plans for expansion that improves realism of command and control.

Of course, since I don't enjoy being treated as a 3rd category person and I don't enjoy funding privilege of other people, I'd prefer if some company from a developing country would also make a wargame focusing on that stuff which would treat me as an equal individual, but it hasn't happened so far which suggests that the developers of Command Ops have extremely rare talents that are possibly unique in the world scale.

[flibby]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Words

Are you serious?

When did this become a discussion about the developed or un-developed world? Do you ensure that you only buy clothing that is made in the west? In addition, i hardly consider the Ukraine to be a 'developing country' such as India/Bangladesh etc.

It's all rather irrelevant. $100 for a computer game is expensive going by the 'norms' of my wargaming heritage which extends back a good way, thank you.

It would perhaps be helpful if you compared some elements of the game v Command Ops and said why you believe Command ops is so much better.

Whilst abstract games are great, i feel that if the ultimate aim of command ops is NOT to take advantage of modern advances, and implement a 3d graphics engine, then it is missing a huge trick.

[budd]

I like and play both for very different reasons. There's great gaming moments in both games.

[Lieste]

I downloaded APOS and their earlier offerings demos and deleted them soon after. User interface is vitally important and this stinks. I couldn't get past my dislike of the implementation to get a good feel for the underlying engine.
Perhaps it is just that their documentation and translators suck... or the demo was half-arsed?

I'd far rather spend *hundreds* of hours using well thought out interface/modes of use such as with CmdOps or Steelbeasts Pro, both of which are more expensive, but offered better value than that 'spent' on bandwidth to download APOS - for me in any case.

The cost thing is only a secondary issue to me: I buy carefully, and will happily save for months to afford something I'd like... but equally I won't spend 'casually' on an off-chance where I have a concern over design or interface.

[bairdlander2]

The UI takes some getting used to,but what realley pissed me off was the fact Matrix has no updates or support for this great title.I realize graviteam has the patches,but everytime I download them,cant get them to work.

[Missouri_Rebel]

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

The UI takes some getting used to,but what realley pissed me off was the fact Matrix has no updates or support for this great title.I realize graviteam has the patches,but everytime I download them,cant get them to work.

If you need help with this let me know sometime and I can get you up and running.

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
For a game about watching tanks exploding? I'm shocked.

I'm sorry you think that is what this game is. There is a lot of strategy to playing this simulation. For instance here are some screens to a battle I am in the middle of right now. My forces are charged with advancing into a heavily wooded area against well dug in defenders.

I was able to call in some good artillery fire after sending a recon forward squad to flush out enemy lines in the woods. This screen captures a direct hit on some trenchworks sending an Ivan flying through the air.



Here is another view of the enemy's trenches.



A platoon on my right flank slowly advances with a line squad to establish communications with it's headquarters for an eventual attack into the deadly woods. Check out the line layer crawling with the other squads following. Another squad in the platoon rushes ahead to secure the area. The game acts like Command Ops in some ways in addition to the orders delays and that is with a friendly AI. I gave the orders to advance under cover to the platoon and the squads did their thing laying wire, securing the area etc.



Another good example of this is on my left. An initial artillery barrage against an undefended area tore up the landscape, destroying trees and creating shell holes. I ordered my platoon to take a break in this area and the AI was smart enough to place the squads in the shell holes and create a defensive perimeter. Of course you can also give orders at the squad level too. Giving too many orders really compounds the command structure and can quickly overwhelm a hq staff rendering it ineffective. Notice the tree in the middle of the background. It, like many of the trees in this once populated area, was stripped of its branches and some of its bark. I'm not sure if the enemy plans to attack this area, but this platoon is to hook up with another slowly advancing through some deep woods to its left. AT guns guard the road in the case of an armored counterattack.



The maps are huge. This shot shows one small portion of the battle I am playing which is part of an even MUCH larger battlefield. There are a couple complete towns on this map alone with farmland, hills, woods, rivers, gullys etc etc.



Much more than watching tanks go boom. I'll leave your nonsense and downright insulting comments about my fellow Western Civilization neighbors alone. Their incredible accomplishments through the ages speaks for itself.

mo reb

[Missouri_Rebel]

Just for some perspective. In this first shot those small blue dots show where this squad is on the operations map. They will move in real time on this map also and you can issue orders from it. There is nothing from stopping a player from playing his whole battle from it. The larger one denotes an infantry gun.



zoomed out

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

The UI takes some getting used to,but what realley pissed me off was the fact Matrix has no updates or support for this great title.I realize graviteam has the patches,but everytime I download them,cant get them to work.

If you need help with this let me know sometime and I can get you up and running.

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
For a game about watching tanks exploding? I'm shocked.

I'm sorry you think that is what this game is. There is a lot of strategy to playing this simulation. For instance here are some screens to a battle I am in the middle of right now. My forces are charged with advancing into a heavily wooded area against well dug in defenders.

I was able to call in some good artillery fire after sending a recon forward squad to flush out enemy lines in the woods. This screen captures a direct hit on some trenchworks sending an Ivan flying through the air.



Here is another view of the enemy's trenches.



A platoon on my right flank slowly advances with a line squad to establish communications with it's headquarters for an eventual attack into the deadly woods. Check out the line layer crawling with the other squads following. Another squad in the platoon rushes ahead to secure the area. The game acts like Command Ops in some ways in addition to the orders delays and that is with a friendly AI. I gave the orders to advance under cover to the platoon and the squads did their thing laying wire, securing the area etc.



Another good example of this is on my left. An initial artillery barrage against an undefended area tore up the landscape, destroying trees and creating shell holes. I ordered my platoon to take a break in this area and the AI was smart enough to place the squads in the shell holes and create a defensive perimeter. Of course you can also give orders at the squad level too. Giving too many orders really compounds the command structure and can quickly overwhelm a hq staff rendering it ineffective. Notice the tree in the middle of the background. It, like many of the trees in this once populated area, was stripped of its branches and some of its bark. I'm not sure if the enemy plans to attack this area, but this platoon is to hook up with another slowly advancing through some deep woods to its left. AT guns guard the road in the case of an armored counterattack.



The maps are huge. This shot shows one small portion of the battle I am playing which is part of an even MUCH larger battlefield. There are a couple complete towns on this map alone with farmland, hills, woods, rivers, gullys etc etc.



Much more than watching tanks go boom. I'll leave your nonsense and downright insulting comments about my fellow Western Civilization neighbors alone. Their incredible accomplishments through the ages speaks for itself.

mo reb

In those screenshots you show and probably the MAIN reason the game suks balls....no offense of course.....but which direction are they facing and how does one know....N..S...E...or W.....that's the issue I have with the game no direction of facing like a compass many games I play have. And don't tell me it's on another screen because THAT is what makes it suck balls. I shouldn't have to goto another screen I should see it right there.

[Missouri_Rebel]

It is there on the screen complete with mini map. I just have those UI elements turned off for a better showing

[Missouri_Rebel]

The game can be disorienting though at times. It is in part because of the large nature of it in some aspects but one that a player comes to terms with as the familiarity grows. Another is how quickly the camera can pan.I usually get my bearings if turned around by right clicking on a squads info panel to reorient the map to a more familiar view. Each game has it's shortfalls. In CO, the elevation tool is not very user friendly. Even the area Los leaves much to be desired. Doesn't make the game suck er...um..balls was it?

But every game isn't for everyone.

[Missouri_Rebel]

I might add that I'm not trying to convince you to like the game. You've made your decision and I respect that. Albeit by your own admission you barely devoted any time to trying to learn it. I'm guilty of the same thing initially and it was that disorientation that was part of my problem. That was overcome with just a little time for me.

My post was in reply to Perturabo and his statement of it being nothing more than a game of watching tanks explode. That and I wanted to share some screens of the new campaign I was playing. Nothing more really.

[Rosseau]

Well, I agree with Mo on this one. Got APOS and all the add-ons long ago from Graviteam. Patched successfully up until recently.

I have Version 5.81 (2167) Update Aug 12.

Am I missing much by not updating to the latest version?

Thanks

[Missouri_Rebel]

Update March 13
1) Fixed crash when pressing ESC while loading district maps in operation.
2) The algorithm of broken tracks is improved.
3) Weapons overheating algorithm is adjusted.
4) Differentiation and locks for paths on operational map is introduced.
5) Principle of editing paths in operation editor is improved.
6) The ability to import a database description for operation from other operation is added.
7) Fixed a bug with the repair in the abandoned vehicles (crew members now leave repair).
8 ) Added a separate button for the ambush. At this command the infantry and gun crews will be lie, vehicle crews will be close a hatches.
9) Removed the option for buttoned state for vehicles.
10) Now you can set the "level" of defensive structures in a quick battle.
11) Added the ability to set placement in defense without digging trenches.
12) Fixed a bug with the canceling of serial orders in battle.
13) Adjusted indication and view modes for serial orders in battle.
14) Added button for automatic platoon placement.
15) Added separate command teams for different types of troops.
16) Added the support units in a quick battle.
17) Added a separation for radio stations by type and his type indication.
18) Fixed a bug with icons remain after disable (and enable) the mini-map.
19) Added the indication for the radio/voice/wire communications in battle.
20) Button for platoons table in operational phase is changed from F1 to F3.
21) Added an antenna on KV-1S and KV-8S tanks.
22) Added an option for icon types on operational map (option 4.20).
23) The algorithm for ammunition and fuel replenish is cahnged, added indication for supply level on map.
24) Command radii is removed.
25) Company and battalion commanders are added in a quick battle.
26) During the retreat without a combat (in operational phase) platoon loses morale.
27) Added the fire platoon commanders in artillery batteries.
28) Staff for the troops in quick battle has been modified and expanded.
29) Added a group of messages for breaking and restoring wired connection.
30) Adjusted an algorithm offers ceasefire from AI (removed immediately cancel after offer).
31) Added target designation by flares.
32) Added a button to apply the last selected filter for soldiers or vehicles.
33) Staff for the troops in operations has been modified and adjusted.
34) Squad parameters panel is changed.
35) Rotate order is moved to squad panel.
36) Added a separate button for reverse move.
37) Added indication for suppressed squads in 3D and on the map.
38) The "quick" orders adaptively vary depending on the number of troops who are given the order.
39) Added a button on the orders panel, which allows to transfer troops under the control of AI.
40) Put a penalty at the start of the operation if allied troops is transfer under the players control.
41) Added automatic movement for signalers to laying wire communication.
42) Added restriction for valid orders, depending on the level of command.
43) Added indication and options for valid orders.
44) Removed the outline of the selected units if individual icons is displayed.
45) Added a separate option for block of squads exchange in the operational phase (by default is enabled).
46) Added tank Pz I ausf. F and a platoon of this tanks in a quick battle.
47) Tankers do not close the hatches and do not climb into the tank if detecting enemy.
48) Added icons in Wehrmacht style on operational map.
49) Fixed a bug with the wrong choice of the level of detail for grass when you attach the camera to an unit.
50) Corrected the appearance for contact signs.
51) Added full automatical firing on external target designation.
52) When the defence "flag" is set during placement mode, changed the principle of defence points selecting.
53) The base color for summer camouflage on some vehicles of Red Army is changed.
54) Visual look of vehicles is changed due to humidity level.
55) Added Red Army's icons for operational map.
56) Fixed a bug with incorrect display of sides color in Quick battle editor due to change side.
57) Fixed a bug with black squares on an operations map.
58) Added Dunkelgelb 1943 color scheme for Pz III ausf. N tank.
59) For external target designation spot time and target direction will be transmitted.
60) Added ability to set delay for order execution until some time (right click on the "Stop" order).
61) Vehiles and squads that left without user control automatically returns to the commander.
62) Added ammo reallocation for guns and mortars at the end of the battle.
63) Slight adjustments for opponents AI.
64) Changed some icons of the squad and vehicle information.
65) Fixed disappearance of the sounds for rolled guns.
66) Added a color scheme selection for the map marks on operational and tactical phases.
67) Added NATO icons for operational map.
68) Fixed bug with unit dragging on the map in deploy phase.
69) Added an option for showing an alphanumeric platoon's codes on the map.
70) Added the wire-reel model for signalman's in the battle.
71) Added muzzle velocity dependence from the temperature.
72) Sounds for Pz III and Pz VI tanks engines and Marder SPGs based on the Pz 38(t) tank caterpillars are changed.
73) Added Soviet Army icons for operational map.
74) Display on the map ally AI plans and their changes during the battle is added.
75) Some shot sounds are corrected.
76) Added some armor piercing ammunition to the penetration diagrams.
77) Added detailed description for the orders delay and for player's command level into the built-in help system.
78) Built-in help system is adjusted and improved.
79) Added an option to select the speakers layout.
80) Fixed a bug with the inability to lock resupply on infantry squads.
81) Adjusted combustion at different soils after exploding shells and bombs.
82) A crew members from the destroyed vehicles can be used to supplement other squads or crews in the platoon.
83) Area of sight is not canceled when choosing a new unit and when it dragging.
84) For platoon's arrangement and rotation with respect to one squad/vehicle will be used its (unit's) direction.
85) Fuel will be leak when vehicle will burned and it's level will appear on the squad's panel.
86) Fixed a bug when displaying the description of the score's calculation criteria for operation.
87) Algorithm's for hit and kill soldiers inside vehicles will be improved.
88) Increased error for targeting when shooting at night or evening time.
89) Added portable radio for German radio squads (in quick battle states).
90) Changed the display units for refueling and ammo replenishing costs (from % to conventional ammo and fuel).
91) Fixed game crashes on some configurations after the end of battle.
92) Improved algorithm for mapping the signal and lighting aids, they divided on day and night types.
"A/B"
93) Fixed hangs in some cases when battle in the operation is loading.
94) The algorithm of selecting units in the platoon at the start of the operation and at the change of broken squads (for AI).
95) The error of targeting at shooting throught a broken sights is reduced.
96) Fixed bug with incorrect update for highlighting platoons that engaged in combat when the rapid movement of the cursor from one battle point to another.
97) The recognition speed of the enemies for open located soldiers (not in vehicles) is increased.
98) The base point for the calculation of the platoons that are involved in combat is shifted towards the attacker.
99) English text for ingame helper is improved.
100) Fixed various minor bugs.
101) Fixed bug with fire-tails on C-5 rockets.
102) Fixed a bug with the ability to set the shelling range outside the active area of the battle.
103) Fixed a bug with the spontaneous changes of squad places in deploy phase in some cases.
104) Changed the keyboard shortcut to activate the message bar.
105) Fixed a bug with the detonation of munitions and the subsequent ignition of the ZU-23-2 crew.
106) Fixed inability to continue operation, in some cases.
107) Fixed a bug with the wrong reaction to a report on the establish and drop of wire communication.
108) Fixed a bug with the lack of a battery commander in the German SPGs platoons.
109) Slightly adjusted description format for the addons.
110) The speed of squads placement before battle is increased.
111) Fixed a bug with the resupply of ammunition for offmap artillery.
112) Fixed a bug with the level of expenditure of ammunition at which recharge is begins.
113) Alghoritm to build command net before tactical battle is changed.
"C1-4"
114) Fixed incorrect headgear placing for the RPG soldiers in the new DLC.
115) Fixed a bug with the additional soldier in Panzergrenadier commander squads.
116) Added an armor maps for a new plants (poplar, corn and reeds).
117) Fixed bug that leads to problems with savegames in the tactical battle.
118) Fixed bug with wrong platoon color in the quick battle editor, when changing sides.
119) Fixed bug with incorrect modifier settings after loading the savegame.

--- August 2013 ---
1) Fixed a bug with duplicate hotkeys.
2) Added ability to shooting prone and kneeling for RPGs.
3) Fixed a bug with incorrect animations when placing soldiers in APCs in placement phase.
4) Fixed a bug with wrong destination of an info message.
5) Fixed a bug with the appearance of light stripes on the borders of 2x2 km squares.
6) Fixed a bug with incorrect positioning of bridges and carriages in vehicles in placement phase.
7) Changed the range of feedforward by firing smoke ammunition.
8 ) Added PPD-40 SMG.
9) Added Howitzer M-30.
10) Fixed a bug with the hanging in the air for the charged shell, after the weapon is take up.
11) Fixed muzzle velocity for a number of pistols and SMGs.
12) In a quick battle added tank platoons with the "early" types of pz II, III, IV tanks and T-34 tank.
13) Added new German offmap artillery: sK.18, lg.Mrs.18, NbW.41 and sWG.41.
14) For ULNB airplane damage model is set up, and it can be shot down by small arms or fighters fire.
15) Added detailed armor maps for vehicles: T-34 mod. 1941, T-60, PzIII J, Pz II F/C, PzIV F1/2.
16) Fixed a bug in the operation editor, lead to improper platoon remove.
17) Added for the soldiers the mechanism of change weapons and ammunition, depending on the type of enemy, and the expected year and month.

--- December 2013 ---
1) Fix the roster of the Red Army scouts on captured APCs.
2) Fixed some errors in the English and Russian locales.
3) Reconfigured the chassis of the T-70.
4) Removed thermal tracks from "invisible tanks" in IR binoculars.
5) Snow render is changed in IR binoculars.
6) Adjusted visibility from tanks.
7) Fixed a rare bug with teleportation of soldiers in 0,0 position after HE projectile hits a truck or APC.

[Missouri_Rebel]

I recently returned to the series and the command aspects are the most evident. Of course they can be turned off in options if you don't care for them.

But the big news is the new engine in mius front that is coming.