Viet Minh?

[Mundy]

I actually started a game vs the AI last month, and am currently into late May '42. Kinda nice getting 8 turns a day in.

I've got China fairly stabilized and have been able to go on the offensive in the west. I'm pretty deep into Vietnam, with two corps at the next city past Hue. (The nice thing about taking Haiphong is wrecking 2 IJN SSs under construction). I'm currently got a seige going against a single unit which, if my rusty memory is right was something like "1st VM".

Is this a Vietnamese force raised by my incursion? Viet Minh maybe? I've already wrecked some Thai units going in.

Ed-

[CT Grognard]

Are you playing DBB?

IIRC, in DBB the Japanese player gets two VM divisions as reinforcements.

[Mundy]

No, this is a stock setup, with the Beta.
 
Ed-

[crsutton]

No, it is probably a Vietnamese Milita unit. The Viet Minh was a nationalistic group that formed around 1941. Although predominantly communist it was a coalition of many groups some that were not communist. The one common ground they all shared was anit-colonialism and Vietnamese independence. This included ridding Vietnam of all outside interlopers. For the most part they considered the Japanese to be colonial intruder just as they viewed the French. It is a complex issue as many nationalist groups in SE Asia, India and Burma initially were favorable to the Japanese and saw them as a means to get rid of their Western colonial masters. However, this does not mean that all did so, as many nationalists saw the Japanese for what they were from the very start.

[Alfred]

Read this thread.

tm.asp?m=2549889&mpage=1&key=viet%2Cminh&#2550165

Alfred

[Mundy]

Thanks, Alfred.
 
Anyway, the VM is fighting harder than the Thais did...
 
Ed-

[spence]

Having had a taste of the "Greater East-Asia (JAPANESE) Co-Prosperity Sphere" neither the Thais nor the Vietnamese were particularly impressed.

Prior to the Japanese arrival the Thais had had a war with the French over Southern Indo-China. IIRC the Japanese acted as mediators to end that war so initially the Thais were inclined to accept Japanese "protection" when the Japanese went to war with Britain (who's colonies of Burma and Malaya bordered on Thailand). Experiences with the IJA over 1942 and 43 tended to cool the Thai's enthusiasm for a Japanese victory to the extent that thousands of them had the temerity to die after being conscripted to build the Burma Railroad. Although Thai AF units were equipped with Ki-43s they seem to had had a really hard time intercepting Allied bombers.

The Viet Minh were devoted to getting the French out of Vietnam. The Viet Minh seem to have given the Japanese a chance to show that they were in some way different from the French. Since such differences were impossible to discern the Viet Minh took to killing Japanese and subsequently received weapons/supply/financial aid from the U.S., Britian and the KMT. Northern Vietnam was occupied by the KMT in 1945 while the Japanese Army was disarmed (without Viet Minh attacks on the Chinese). Then the French replaced the Chinese and the Indo-China War (as we know it) began.

None of these politics fit very well in a 2 sided game such as AE. If in fact the Vietnamese Militia appear in 1942 to sorta help the Japanese against the Chinese it is sorta OK with me...especially if, after 1942(while IJ is sorta winning), the IJ Player gets no help from any Vietnamese Militia at all (as is rumored but not confirmed in the thread referenced above).

Frankly, it is a pretty big stretch to believe that the perfect Japanese solution to 3 years of stalemate in China was for Japan to go to war with the rest of the world. An IJ alliance with the Viet Minh is small potatoes.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: spence

Having had a taste of the "Greater East-Asia (JAPANESE) Co-Prosperity Sphere" neither the Thais nor the Vietnamese were particularly impressed.

Prior to the Japanese arrival the Thais had had a war with the French over Southern Indo-China. IIRC the Japanese acted as mediators to end that war so initially the Thais were inclined to accept Japanese "protection" when the Japanese went to war with Britain (who's colonies of Burma and Malaya bordered on Thailand). Experiences with the IJA over 1942 and 43 tended to cool the Thai's enthusiasm for a Japanese victory to the extent that thousands of them had the temerity to die after being conscripted to build the Burma Railroad. Although Thai AF units were equipped with Ki-43s they seem to had had a really hard time intercepting Allied bombers.

The Viet Minh were devoted to getting the French out of Vietnam. The Viet Minh seem to have given the Japanese a chance to show that they were in some way different from the French. Since such differences were impossible to discern the Viet Minh took to killing Japanese and subsequently received weapons/supply/financial aid from the U.S., Britian and the KMT. Northern Vietnam was occupied by the KMT in 1945 while the Japanese Army was disarmed (without Viet Minh attacks on the Chinese). Then the French replaced the Chinese and the Indo-China War (as we know it) began.

None of these politics fit very well in a 2 sided game such as AE. If in fact the Vietnamese Militia appear in 1942 to sorta help the Japanese against the Chinese it is sorta OK with me...especially if, after 1942(while IJ is sorta winning), the IJ Player gets no help from any Vietnamese Militia at all (as is rumored but not confirmed in the thread referenced above).

Frankly, it is a pretty big stretch to believe that the perfect Japanese solution to 3 years of stalemate in China was for Japan to go to war with the rest of the world. An IJ alliance with the Viet Minh is small potatoes.

The premise of the VM appearing is Chinese troops crossing to invade Vietnam. Considering the historical fueds between the two nations, it's not too much of a stretch.

The VM might have had poor relations with the Japanese, but they disliked the Chinese more.

[spence]

The VM might have had poor relations with the Japanese, but they disliked the Chinese more.

Inspired by the Co-Prosperity Sphere the Viet Minh killed Japanese. When Chinese troops moved into Vietnam to disarm the Japanese in 1945 the Viet Minh left them alone. Your logic is impeccable[8|].

[CT Grognard]

The Viet Minh had links with nationalist groups in China before World War II. This combined with strong Marxist leanings that resulted in Vietnamese communist groups forming in the late 1920s and very much being assisted by the Comintern (Vietnamese revolutionaries received training in the Soviet Union and China).

The founding goals of the Indochina Communist Party in 1930 were independence from France and a communist society.

Despite brutal reprisals by the French colonial authorities, the ICP continued to grow. Ho Chi Minh returned from exile in 1941. He set up the Viet Minh as an inclusive confederation whose charter was more nationalist than communist, and was dedicated to the overthrow of "French jackals" and "Japanese fascists".

The Viet Minh was therefore, at the time, committed to removing foreign aggressors from Indochina. Although nominally non-communist, it was still largely steered by the ICP.

I imagine that the Viet Minh would have been icy towards the KMT and cordial towards Mao's Red Army.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: spence

The VM might have had poor relations with the Japanese, but they disliked the Chinese more.

Inspired by the Co-Prosperity Sphere the Viet Minh killed Japanese. When Chinese troops moved into Vietnam to disarm the Japanese in 1945 the Viet Minh left them alone. Your logic is impeccable[8|].

The Chinese were pumping funds in to the Vietnamese Kuomintang, not something the VM were likely to take kindly to, and especially not in light of the ties the leadership had with the Communist Chinese.

Chiang Kai-Shek used this army as a tool to sqeeze the French in to giving up their concessions, is it a hard stretch to imagine Chinese demands turning to Vietnamese territory itself?

Plus, you're comparing the circumstances of surrender the end of the war (after Japan has reinstated the Emperor of Vietnam, and when Japan has surrendered) with a mid-war invasion by Chinese troops. Not exactly comparable.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: spence

The VM might have had poor relations with the Japanese, but they disliked the Chinese more.

Inspired by the Co-Prosperity Sphere the Viet Minh killed Japanese. When Chinese troops moved into Vietnam to disarm the Japanese in 1945 the Viet Minh left them alone. Your logic is impeccable[8|].

Sometime events of the day dictate actions. However, the Vietnamese always had a wary relationship with China and a history of resisting Chinese intervention in Vietnamese affairs. The Viet Minh could simply have been dealing with a political reality dictated by the circumstances of a global war. I doubt that they would have left the Chinese alone for any great length of time if the Chinese remained in Vietnam.