Fractional Odds, huh?

[76mm]

Could someone please briefly explain the fractional odds optional rule? I read the description a couple of times but can't really grasp what impact it will have on gameplay??

[Centuur]

It's this:

Without this rule, a battle with 39 against 10 combatfactors is always a 3-1 battle.

With this rule, there is a 90% chanche that this battle will become a 4-1 battle.

So a die (random number) is rolled to determine first if the battle is a 3-1 or a 4-1.

Than the second die is rolled, to get the result on either the 3-1 of the 4-1 combat table.

[Joseignacio]

So, the reason why a vast majority of players use fractional odds is not to have to do "the accountants war" and doublé and triple check every stack to get the better allocation and avoid the 3,9 become a plain 3.

Sometimes people move and move and move again all the front trying to maximize the ratio and sometimes you don't reañy know where some of the units attacking Kiev starting at. Sometimes maybe Sevastopol...

Fractional odds make it all much more simple.

[brian brian]

some players resist using them though...too much wargaming tradition broken, or something.

I probably won't ever play without them ever again. so greatly speeds up the game.

I do look forward to the day when computer wargames are designed to reflect the realities of maneuvering large scale military units. it just isn't really possible to just completely shift a few score divisions around to different sectors of a front line every week or two.

[paulderynck]

More realistic too. A one point defending ground support bomber should not get through and change an 80 to 40 attack into a 1 to 1.

[76mm]

Thanks guys...I understood more or less how this rule worked, but didn't understand why people would play with it or not, but now it is clear. I think I'll use it as well.

[Gutting]

Does fractional odds imbalance the game by giving the attacker higher average odds?

[Klydon]

No real imbalance I think. Just more die rolling.

The fractional odds rule is not restricted to just WiF. I think a lot of games/groups now use it and if it isn't a written rule within the game system itself, most players will use it as a "house rule" just to speed up play.

[Gutting]

I've done that too with several games. But I work it so there is a chance the odds go down one column in addition to a chance that the odds go up a column. That way the average CRT odds per battle don't diverge from what the average non-fractional CRT odds would be for a given game. I think this is important if one wants to stick to the offense/defence balance designed into the game.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Gutting

Does fractional odds imbalance the game by giving the attacker higher average odds?

So many people use it that any imbalance would be tough to quantify because there's so little data to compare with.

I did a mathematical analysis of it and concluded that it gave the attacker - averaging all attacks made - about a point 3 of one die roll pip advantage on the 2D10. That is equivalent to 1-1 attack really being a 1.15 to 1 attack. (A 4-1 really being a 4.15 to 1, etc.)

[brian brian]

there is a school of thought that using them is basically pro-attacker. for every time the fractional is 0.5, one half of the time the attacker is rewarded for adding the 0.5 odds level to the attack. but if they don't get the fractional die roll, it doesn't hurt them much. the other attacks that could have benefitted from the extra factors probably have their own good fractionals anyway; so not making the fractional isn't much of a penalty. fractional odds are bonus attack factors, basically.

This is especially true on the 2d10 with divisions in play, where there is a view that there aren't enough losses in combat already. And anything that is pro-attacker in land combat can be viewed as pro-Axis, because aiding attacks aids the expansion of the Axis through the first half of the game, making the job for the Allies that much more difficult in the second half of the game.

so one House Rule solution is to subtract 0.5 from the fractional (or other numbers in various Houses, most likely) to bring down the attacking factors some, &/or with a first-lost-must-be-a-Corps-sized-unit. (House Rules like that are impossible to use in MWiF however).

[paulderynck]

Yes we talked about subtracting the point 3 I mentioned. But it's not fair if the attacker's odds are anything plus a point 1 or point 2. Of course the house rule could include a clause for that too, but it will never (never say never [:'(]) happen with MWiF.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Yes we talked about subtracting the point 3 I mentioned. But it's not fair if the attacker's odds are anything plus a point 1 or point 2. Of course the house rule could include a clause for that too, but it will never (never say never [:'(]) happen with MWiF.

If you take the broad view (over all combats), fractional odds reflects the total factors attacking versus the total factors defending. Where any "odd/left over" factors are applied (i.e., to which individual combats), doesn't matter. While without fractional odds, where the 'odd' attacking factors are applied is crucial.

Of course, a yet deeper analysis could be made, looking at the effective difference between 3:1 and 4:1, etc.

[Gutting]

Interesting point that the penalty for failure to increase odds is the wasted extra attack factors.

[Mike Parker]

One thing to consider, its not JUST the opportunity cost of not having extra factors to apply to another combat when you fail a frac odds roll, but also the effect of possibly getting a unit flipped (disrupted) that did not need to be. If I put in an extra 6 factors and fail the fractional roll then get all the attackers flipped that is 6 factors I likely could have kept out and not gotten flipped, unless my smallest unit was 7 factors.

Yes it is likely a small bit in favour of the attacker BUT its real impact is exactly preventing the neccesity of looking over everything you do in minute detail to make sure you cnnot min-max your attack odds better. With frac odds you are not so upset that you have an extra couple of factors here or there as over time those extra factors will make for better attacks at a proper ratio. With a game as huge as Wif it becomes quite laborious to peer over the board and try and see if you can get the perfect set of attacks going... although it does allow opponent to make a food/beer run while your doing that, but that is not modeled in MWIF!

[Gutting]

I'm converted, fractional odds is for me!