Re: Refit or not to Refit?

[lastkozak]

I have had several games as the Soviets and I do not know what the better strategy is regarding refitting. If one refits units to 80% they get a front line that is strong, but reinforcements which come on depleted, how they save tonnes of rail points running the depleted units up within 10 hexes of the front.

On the other hand, not refitting units at the front, or to only 50-60% results in losing a lot more rail points, and having a weaker front line, but stronger reinforcements in the rear building forts! Thus a higher probability if the Germans have a breakthrough, of having zones of control eating up movement and stronger units rather than units that run when they even hear guns fire!

What are some other Soviet player thoughts on this. The inquiring proletariat comrades want to know!

lastkozak

[Flaviusx]

It really all depends on your replacement situation.

In 1941 it is possible to more or less put everything on refit until the end of the year when your armaments flatline. (And they will flatline.) From that point onwards, you need to be very judicious about this and rotate fresh units with adequate morale into the front line, and rotate beat up ones out of it. The units on the front should be taken off refit at this stage. Other units near the front need to be placed on reserve for reaction.

Once this tedious shuffling of units is done then you must consult your production and logistics screen to determine how many replacements you're getting each turn and select a limited number of units to refit that approximate those figures which are below TOE strength. After that you may have other units which are at or near full TOE strength in the rear, but at low morale, and these can also be safely placed on refit until they get adequately trained up as they will not draw upon your limited replacement pool. So it is possible to have many refits even from 1942 onwards, depending on your replacement situation and the operational tempo.

As for railing around shells in 1941 and leaving them as such in order to conserve rail cap, that all depends on their ultimate destination. If you intend to train them up, then there's really no need to place them on refit. Just wait until they arrive at their training locations and then refit them. If you feel like you need to rush them immediately into action, then I prefer to let them take replacements on the move and arrive at full strength regardless of the hit to rail cap.

[gingerbread]

I don't disagree with Flaviusx about refit but I do have one suggestion that aims to postpone the ARM flat line.

Don't use any Art Reg! They seldom make a difference in the battle but the ARM that they cost to replace and the ARM they cost to provide with ammo are better used in Rifle squads and the like.

So T1 all Art to 50% and then use the auto system to get them to STAVKA and then park them in the Urals. Consider disbanding the ones with 152mm Hwz.

This will hopefully allow Refit to be used a while longer.

[Flaviusx]

I dunno, even setting arty to 50% and ruthlessly disbanding non standard arty SUs I still flatline on armaments sometime in October. And I only leave 2 RVGK regiments per army. Those quiet mud turns are great for recovery of the Red Army, but hell on the replacement pool.

[M60A3TTS]

As long as you don't lose excessive numbers of arms factories, there shouldn't be a need to ship arty anywhere. Even if the arms pool go to zero, I've only seen that happen very briefly as more damaged arms factories that were previously evacuated make their die roll. Then recovery begins. Now of course if you have every tank brigade coming in set on refit, sure that's going to wipe out your arms pool for a while. So you just don't do that.

[lastkozak]

I have played following somebody's suggestion to not refit any but reinforcements, this however did result in fewer German casualties and more Soviet units dieing completely. But, did result in more units on the map that had adequate strength to prevent any massive runs behind my lines; I had a checkerboard pattern set up behind the lines, as well as forts already started to fall back on. It sucks to leave a 2 fort and have to start from nothing, but is quite encouraging if they run back into 1 forts and can come close to making it a 2 by the end of 1 turn.

I usually play a slow retreat, so that I can get all my factories out. so far only 2 games where I lost any Arms factories. 1 game I lost only Minsk and Mogilev, the other I lost Minks, Mogilev and Nikolaev; not that much really. But the slow retreat results in more casualties, I found. The quick retreat, and refit on worked better at getting the Factories out, except for Minsk! Its a gonner no matter what anyone does.

If anything I have found allowing my arty to be available to good army commanders that they are more affective than not having them there. To boost my personnel numbers, I put all SAD airbases at 50%, as well as useless HQ's, until I have extra AP's to disband them.

For armour, I usually try to bring them up to 60-65%, and set them at reserve status behind the lines, but only ones that have good heavy and medium tanks.

However, I am finding it difficult to create forts behind the lines, and retreats are more costly since I cannot slow the Germans down without a good fort line behind a river. Its making out flanking me a better strategy, since I need to retreat the entire line, and then smaller German divisions can attack units they could not before. (I so love demoralizing the Germans when they realize they need close to an entire corps if they want to take a hex)! [:D]

I suspect that I have not played an advanced enough German player, because my opponents seem to stop their advance and wait for Infantry to come up, or need to concentrate their forces, or seeking out vulnerable spots in my line (which can be found where I want them to attack); this is where I use the refit for front line units. Where I did not refit, my opponent crossed the Dnipro early and drove for Bryansk.

Not sure which method is best.

[morvael]

Aren't tanks and aircraft factories using supplies for production? Armaments are for artillery and squads.

[lastkozak]

morvael:
Aren't tanks and aircraft factories using supplies for production? Armaments are for artillery and squads.

Ich Nicht verschtern! Ya ne Rozoumiyou vam!

If my Tanks and Aircraft factories are not using supplies for production this game has bigger bugs than they thought!

[gingerbread]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I dunno, even setting arty to 50% and ruthlessly disbanding non standard arty SUs I still flatline on armaments sometime in October. And I only leave 2 RVGK regiments per army. Those quiet mud turns are great for recovery of the Red Army, but hell on the replacement pool.

Ah, but you like to stuff the Cav Divs, don't you? I keep a Cav Div at 50% until it has both upgraded to a 41b AND upgraded type of Cav squad. A 41a has 99 more squads than a 41b which at 69ARM is just short of 7k ARM for each div! There are ~40 41a arriving until T15, so keeping these at 50% will save quite a lot, though I'm not claiming a full 275k.

I might make an exception for the ART SU that made a very good Mor/Exp roll at set up, as in 55+. These could actually hit if/when they fire. The rest goes on extended leave.

[morvael]

ORIGINAL: lastkozak
Ich Nicht verschtern! Ya ne Rozoumiyou vam!

If my Tanks and Aircraft factories are not using supplies for production this game has bigger bugs than they thought!

From the manual:

Aircraft, AFV and combat vehicles are built at individual factories by using supplies

The rest is built using armaments. Tanks themselves won't drain armaments pool, except when they would use up all supplies.

Production chain is
Resources -> Supplies -> AFV/Aircraft
and
Resources -> Supplies -> Armaments -> Squads/Guns

[Flaviusx]

Yeah, it's probably the cav that is killing me in October. I pull them all off the line, reassign them, refit 'em and start prepping them for winter.

Next game I play I will try the following: just disband every single arty su. Stick 2 sappers and a flak unit in every army and call it a day. That has the side benefit of saving some trucks.

But in past games I've done very well with artillery defensive reactions, and get a lot of guards out of them eventually. Which is my hesitation.

[Denniss]

I wouldn't disband artillery but I'd keep an eye on the cav divs as suggested above - cav squads seem more expensive than artillery. So avoid fitting-out low-TOE cav units with the old squads unless you have lots of them in pool.

[Flaviusx]

Deniss, I'm going to try the arty disband thing, just because I am curious to see how that shakes out.

Am not keen on starving cavalry divisions on replacements until their TOE changes. Yes, this is very attractive from a replacement standpoint but not from an operational one, my cavalry divisions are busy during the summer doing things or threatening to do things and I prefer to keep them up to strength. They are weak enough as is.

[hfarrish]

I've always found Cav units essential for operations in the South particularly when infantry is needed up north. Good for keeping deep PZ operations under control and screening off less critical parts of the front.

I zeroed out in early December for the first time ever in a current game but don't think it will prove to be catastrophic given a good factory evac (still have 352 albeit with 279 producing last turn given bad damage rolls), and that is with making absolutely no sacrifices on refitting anything or setting units to sub-100 TOEs or anything (I hate micromanagement). I don't really like taking artillery offline given that it actually causes casualties, which the Sovs desperately need.

[gingerbread]

I'm not denying that Cav units have their uses, but I do think that very few players realize how expensive they really are.

Using Cav to attack pre- or post- blizzard is really not advisable until a sizeable pool of ARM has been built up, I'm talking mid '43, after the Jul '42 Rifle squad upgrade and late '42 & early '43 Art Div build.

In many cases, a Tank Brigade can be used to reach a hex instead of a Cav Div.

As an on-topic, TOE setting is a better tool than the rdy/rft togle.