Space / Tactical Fleet Combat Game / AI Progressing

[CarlVon]

Thanks Perturabo,

That's funny, there is a Z axis, but I have hidden it . All math is done in 3D. It was interesting, but very hard to play with lots of ships. 3D would require a full 3D client and a lot of work on the UI. But hey, I like you thinking, wait till you try in 2D first . A big fleet makes my brain hurt already hehe.

[Stilletto]

oOoOoOo. 3D. Now you're talking! Do the ships model armor on all sides, top, bottom, etc if you were to switch to 3D?

[CarlVon]

lol! You guys are great!

Yes, the ships are modeled with armor fore, aft, port, starboard, top, bottom.

I'm playing around with some 3D stuff, but it needs to be clean like the current interface, the game uses a time control system that is very powerful (refer to gunnery manual) so the UI needs to stay clean.

If it goes 3D, I won't compromise on the UI.

Anyhow, lets get 2D down first .

Status update:
- All major bugs are crushed by alpha testing, a few more big fights should get us there, we are just testing the Missile Defenses right now, and see if the interface on that needs cleaning. Had an issue with the intercept math, and couldn't defend my battleship! Almost lost it hehe. But our math guy fixed it all up.
- There is a basic lobby system, so I can generate some mission for users and they can play on their own time -- New users can start with something small.
- Then just some general code cleaning I think.
- Once we get going, and you guys have played, I would love to get designing some ships.

[Stilletto]

2D already looks like great fun. My boys have asked about playing it as well. They still think they can beat me on tactical games like that.

Silly boys.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: CarlVon

Thanks Perturabo,

That's funny, there is a Z axis, but I have hidden it . All math is done in 3D. It was interesting, but very hard to play with lots of ships. 3D would require a full 3D client and a lot of work on the UI. But hey, I like you thinking, wait till you try in 2D first . A big fleet makes my brain hurt already hehe.

Would big space fleets be feasible to build and practically useful anyway?

[CarlVon]

Family is good Stilletto, I think it would be great. When we get there, we can make a mission for you and your boys.

I hope you win, call me a sucker for old, wise and angry.

[CarlVon]

Hi Pertuabo,

The largest fleet action so far was around 15 ships each / 30 total.

Yes, it changes everything. When there is 1 vs 1, it's tactics, but once you have a squad you can use angles on each other, flanks etc. Flanks in this game are particually devistating (as shown in the latest after action report). Once you have around 20 ships each, you can do raiding, skimeshes and large formations (formations count -- big time). You will have to plan and time your fleet co-ordinated efforts, it is very hard. Opponents like Meanfcker will try to hide their movements with deception, amazing enough, this works even when you can see you opponent -- he is quite good at it. The game also supports multiple teams, fleets, and elements per fleet, so there is no reason we couldn't have a 4 vs 4 with 15 ships each via 2 teams. 120 ships total. A fight that size would require very complicated strategic thought and operational timing.

Keep in mind, armor is much less on the sides of the ships than the front, non-existent basically on the rear (although the Baltos assault cruiser is an exception due to some seriously costly engineering). Anyhow, the ships are cylinders so weight cost is less on the front, but much more costly on the sides (given dimentions of a tube), this will create major issues for you in battle, or you can exploit them to destroy your enemy. On an operational level this involves a lot of thought, it can all be combined -- the effects are devistating. But because it is also modeled at the tactical level, knowing ships and their capabilities are very important.

Soon you will understand .

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: CarlVon

Hi Pertuabo,

The largest fleet action so far was around 15 ships each / 30 total.

Yes, it changes everything. When there is 1 vs 1, it's tactics, but once you have a squad you can use angles on each other, flanks etc. Flanks in this game are particually devistating (as shown in the latest after action report). Once you have around 20 ships each, you can do raiding, skimeshes and large formations (formations count -- big time). You will have to plan and time your fleet co-ordinated efforts, it is very hard. Opponents like Meanfcker will try to hide their movements with deception, amazing enough, this works even when you can see you opponent -- he is quite good at it. The game also supports multiple teams, fleets, and elements per fleet, so there is no reason we couldn't have a 4 vs 4 with 15 ships each via 2 teams. 120 ships total. A fight that size would require very complicated strategic thought and operational timing.

I mean in sense of worlds powers being able to amass massive space fleets.

[CarlVon]

Sorry Perturabo I understand now ,

Given the rate of technology progression (exponential at this point), I am probably under rating some of the specs on the ships. Given Nanobots, Brain augmentation, minaturization, soon to be space mining, nano level material control etc etc. There is no reason large fleets could not be fielded. I mean, really if we get nanobots working in the next 20 years, a small group or even an individual could have a workforce of billions, and raise entire cities in months. Home based manufacturing should be in full swing soon. Let's just refer to the Singularity Era: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uIzS1uCOcE

Bottom line, with the amount of wealth in our solar system, there seems to be a reason 1) To get out there and get the stuff, 2) To protect what you get 3) Given the amount of wealth, no reason you couldn't afford both points 1 and 2.

For interest:
The in-game frigates is around around 1.5B (Today's Dollars)
The in-game cruiser is around 3.2B
The in-game battleship is around 9.6B

Pretty cheap really, unless you loose a bunch.

[Meanfcker]

One other real nice thing about this game, is the minimal time commitment.
I am working two jobs right now and cannot commit to a game of ATG.
I can usually come up with an hour or two a week and that is it... this game works well for that.

[Meanfcker]

I also agree with Dan about the 3D.
I insisted on 3D at first.
Once we started to experiment with task force sized fleets, ie a battleship and appropriate support, the game quickly became complicated enough that I shut up.
The thing to remember always is that everything is based on true Newtonian physics. It is like asteroids, once you start moving in a given vector, you will keep moving in that vector until you act to make a change. You cannot expose the rear of your ship to the enemy. This makes planning very far in advance an absolute necessity.
2D is complicated enough for now. I would be willing to try 3D at some point though.
Meanie.

[Stilletto]

Since it is true Newtonian physics does the game allow accelerating to a certain speed then rotating the ship to a different vector while still traveling the original one?

[Meanfcker]

Absolutely, we refer to that as yaw and bearing. I might have a bearing of 180 and a velocity of 2000m/s, but I could be facing ninety degrees port or starboard of my vector.
That is very handy, and often necessary in fleet engagements, especially for the flank guards.
Add to that intermittent or constant thrust and you can generate irregular curves.
It is all very intellectually stimulating.
I wish Dan would hurry up and get it ready for you guys, it is too good to keep to ourselves!
Meanie.

[Stilletto]

Better and better.

How about small craft? Any carriers? Fighters, bombers, gunboats, that sort of thing?

[CarlVon]

Hi Stilletto,

There's no limit what we can do with the current design system. But we limited by the combat environment and physics. The smallest design so far is the frigate vanguard class around 158 Meters Long with 12 Meter Beam and 5300 Metric Tons. The Battleship (Dreadnough class) is around 450 Meters and 78000 Metric Tons.

Now, fighters (single man space craft) are basically out because there's a minimum size for a fusion torch with fuel etc. Laser also occupy lots of space, along with the all important armor weight. That being said, I would like to design a smaller fusion torch for a corvette class ship, the only thing that may make that worthless is not enough armor, but we will see. In the end, depends on the cost of the corvette, it better be cheap.

Carrier's are a seperate issue all together. We will require some handwavum for a jump drive system in the future, so "carrier" or "Support Command Ships" will probably be required to house a jump drive and take the fleet with them.

For bombers etc, some ships have missile systems, and projectile systems. They are limited, point defense is trivial in space, but they have their uses. Lasers are by far the primary weapon, as well as your mind, and your boldness.

[Stilletto]

I thought fighters used a modified hydrogen based ion engine that didn't have the thrust to weight ratio of a fusion torch but don't need it because they are small. Armor would also be a non issue as a fighter is designed to use it's quickness and ability to maneuver to survive. Fighters could carry a smaller laser that didn't have the range of the big guns but were designed to be used in squadrons instead of alone. Bombers would basically be the same thing but carry a few missiles/torpedoes designed to be fired closer to an enemy ship to overload it's anti-missile defenses.

Or whatever. <laughing> Sorry. I couldn't resist. Can't wait to play.

[CarlVon]

lol! That was a good read Stilletto, gave me a good chuckle.

On the very serious side of space combat, for those who are viewing...

When we talk about maneuver, it's not like Earth. The standard 6Gj laser would make swiss cheeze out of a small craft -- Lasers aren't going to miss even if you do loop-de-loops , an ion drive may provide enough thrust (not really but ok, hehe) for it to change vectors quickly, the problem is, the big guys like the frigate will move just as fast (due to their 1.5TW Fusion Torch), and will out firepower and armor the small fighter.

Now, if the fighter needs a laser, woah! It needs, batteries, a reactor (that can also provide power for the ion drive), a targeting computer, sensors etc etc. Ok, so say it's all really small stuff, the next problem is you need big lasers to even break through the armor, so you begin a cycle where you will end up with a much larger fighter. Well, the frigates are currently smaller than a 688i sub, so really they are quite small, could be considered fighters

Now, if your fighter was kinda fast you could get moving at 3KM per/second and then strike the larger ship you would have the fighter mass converted to equivilent of TNT, making it's poor little laser that can't break the thick armor useless, and worse... Expensive and useless - a horrible combo.

But smashing into something with 3KM speed * mass is great.. Hmm, assuming the larger object doesn't have a Metal Storm CIWS system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKlnMwuCZso.. Then we have a new problem, your 3KM of energy that you paid for is about to be translated directly back to you once a small fragment shot at you hits you. And don't think you can 'dodge' it, your moving 3KM/s!! hehe, you ain't adjusting crap.

Essentially we have fighters, we call them missiles . But Corvettes we still gonna try, because it would be cool. hehe. If they flunk, I'm not paying for them.

[CarlVon]

Hi All,

Just a quick update for you guys.

The graphics engine has been moved to a full 3d engine (panda3D). Much more powerful and smoother. I have moved to a "Harpoon" style look. Let me know what you think.

This move was needed as the other engine was quite slow, now it's smooth as silk, very handy when plotting attack runs.



And at a more strategic level, the game now automatically changes the display.

[Stilletto]

Nice.....very nice. Was just thinking about the status of this project.

[CarlVon]

Always good to hear from you,

Just having some issues compiling right now, but the Panda3D team is helping me. Anyone out there doing development I would highly recommend Panda3d, a pleasure to work in.

Anyhow, once it's compiled we will do another big battle to flush out any bugs on the new display, tweeks etc. Then we can look at getting a Beta server up.

The server side has been upgraded to 'pypy', some processing went from over a minute to 6 seconds, so yeah.. pypy is good . This is all the nit picky stuff (80 / 20 rule). But it needs to be done, but so far I'm really happy with the new display engine.