German Panzerdivisions 42-43 (for TOAW) excel sheet for review etc..

[Telumar]

I thought i should post this here in the main forum instead of the scenario design subforum where it could easily be missed or overseen.

What is it? It is an excel sheet containing a detailed breakdown of all German Panzer-Divisions that fought on the Eastern Front during the 2nd half of 1942 until early (ca. March) 1943. The excel contains 10 pages (or tables):

- Pz.Div. Organisation - basic organisational chart of the Pz.Div.
- Pz.Rgt. - TO&E and Panzer types used
- Panzer Strengths - Available Panzers in the Pz.Regts in summer 42, Nov. 42 and in some cases in early 43
- Pz.Div. Overview - the 'table of tables' - each Pz.Div. broken down to company level regarding organisation and equipment
- Pz.Gren.Rgt. - detailed breakdown and TO&E
- Armored Pz.Gren. Btls. - which infantry units were actually armored (ger.: gepanzert),using the SdKfz 251s
- Pz.Jäger.Abt. - detailed breakdown and TO&E
- Kradschtz.Btl. - detailed breakdown and TO&E of the German motorcycle units and other recon elements
- Pz.Pio.Btl. - detailed breakdown and TO&E
- Art.Rgt. - detailed breakdown and TO&E

There is a lot of German in the document (well.. it's about German divisions..), i've used German unit and equipment names, abbreviations, numbering system, also German plural (i.e. Kompanie ~ Kompanien) etc. - if this is a problem i could add a translation and abbreviation chart if desired.

The document has been made with TOAW in mind, however I did not "translate" the equipment to the TOAW standard database.

I'm posting this here for review, critics and (hopefully) additional input. And for the benefit of TOAW, scenario design and historical accuracy. Don't just say "hey thanks, cool, Telu!" - if you have questions, remarks, and most importantly critic and different or additional information on what ever aspect, don't hesitate to post here.
I've used a plethora of sources for the document: Tessin, R.Stoves, Jentz' Panzertruppen Vol 1 & 2., P.Battistelli (Osprey publishing), original German documents (NARA scans), orbat.com, lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de, wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstnmain.htm to name the most important ones.

Download (dropbox): https://www.dropbox.com/s/l4xv065r4lxeu ... 942_43.zip
The zip contains the excel sheet in .ods and .xls format.

EDIT: 20/10/13 updated the excel (typos, all else unchanged)
EDIT: 01/12/13 updated the excel (minor errors)

[ogar]

Hey, thanks, cool, Telu !

OK - some minor suggestions after first glance :
1) Put in some (if necessary, manufactured) start-end dates, such as 'good for the period : May 26 1942 - March 2 1943'.  Yes, you are making these dates up, but they do set the boundaries.  Otherwise you are back to the original documents' weasel wording, and their own contradictory dating.

2) You cannot have too many - THIS IS BASED ON AUTHORIZED STRENGTHS ONLY - REAL STRENGTHS WILL DIFFER - warnings.  I fell into thinking 'That's wrong' about 1 instance, when I clearly was recollecting the actual monthly strength report for what your spreadsheet shows - the AUTHORIZED strength.  I'd put that disclaimer at the top of each sheet in the spreadsheet.

3) For this time period, I think you ought to change the HMG reference to MG-34.  That is what they were.

I have to repeat - Thank you.  This took an immense amount of work, crawling through the sources, compiling the errata, and then re-re-viewing your compilation.  And adding in all the supplemental material, equipment changes/variations, allocation oddities.  That's a lot of work.  Thanks.

[Falcon1]

It warms my heart to see such devoted fanaticism. Nice to see that the game is in such good hands. I can already tell TOAW will be a keeper and I'm still playing the tutorials.

Reminds me of the SPWAW forum when the hardcore fanatics would argue over exactly how many millimeters of armor was on the front turret of a tiger.

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: ogar

Hey, thanks, cool, Telu !

OK - some minor suggestions after first glance :
1) Put in some (if necessary, manufactured) start-end dates, such as 'good for the period : May 26 1942 - March 2 1943'.  Yes, you are making these dates up, but they do set the boundaries.  Otherwise you are back to the original documents' weasel wording, and their own contradictory dating.

2) You cannot have too many - THIS IS BASED ON AUTHORIZED STRENGTHS ONLY - REAL STRENGTHS WILL DIFFER - warnings.  I fell into thinking 'That's wrong' about 1 instance, when I clearly was recollecting the actual monthly strength report for what your spreadsheet shows - the AUTHORIZED strength.  I'd put that disclaimer at the top of each sheet in the spreadsheet.

3) For this time period, I think you ought to change the HMG reference to MG-34.  That is what they were.

I have to repeat - Thank you.  This took an immense amount of work, crawling through the sources, compiling the errata, and then re-re-viewing your compilation.  And adding in all the supplemental material, equipment changes/variations, allocation oddities.  That's a lot of work.  Thanks.

Ogar,

that can be easily (and has been) adapted. See my article about the .EQP file for Kharkov '43 and

I made some tweaks with in the range of existing combat values, so don't expect some 'Wunderwaffen' on either side.

I based the tweaks on the following facts and Norm's design and intention:

The AP (Anti-Personal) values are, as per Norm:

A 10 men Rfl Sqd has a AP of 19. This is represented in the game as Light Rifle Squad - 1 x Sqd Ldr + 9 x Rfl Men. Each soldier contributes an AP value of 2, except the Sqd Ldr who's foremost task is to lead. He is represented with half
the AP value. So 1(1) + 9(2) = 19

One LMG has an AP value of 6, as we know a regular Rifle Squad in the game got a value of 25. This is represented in my .EQP as e.g. Rfl Sqd + le.MG34/42 for the Germans. Other Rifle Squads with non-specific LMGs
are simply represented with adding a (+). Hence, a Hungarian Rifle Squad WITH an LMG is called: Rifle Squad FEG 35M(+).

Now, a Heavy Rifle Squad, and I refer to Bob Cross' analysis, is NOT equipped with one HMG BUT 2 x LMG. It's reflected and shown in the AP value. Remember, Norm's HRS has an AP value of 31

19 + 6 + 6 = 31!

Talking about the HMG. Norm's AP values reflect a 12.7mm or .50 calibre weapon such as the US M2 HMG or the Soviet DShK-38 12.7mm HMG. Those calibres naturally got some AT value, in this case 2.
NOW, how did I come up with the German MG42 s.MG (HMG) value of 24? Easy. I am aware it has not the punch of the M2 HMG, but the accuracy and the rate of fire while mounted on a tripod.
I simply used the standard value for the 2 x MMG (AP=12) and voilà - here's the 24. For one MG34/42 (a mix of them) is used the value 18. 1 x LMG (6) + 1 x MMG (12) = 18.

Some weapons or teams are represented with the amount of the specific weapons in parentheses. Most notably the MG34/42(1) m.MG team

I used the same philosophy for the German Motorized Rifle and Panzergrenadier, as well as Pioneer Squads, especially the AT and HEAT/Kinetic values.

An early Panzerfaust or PIAT got an AT value of 5
Late war PzF and the US Bazooka an AT value of 8
The Panzerschreck and post-WW2 Bazookas an AT value of 15.

We can assume that an AT team with an AP value of 16 got a mix of SMG and Rfl men, probably 4-6. But that's nicely represented as well.


Klink, Oberst

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: ogar

Hey, thanks, cool, Telu !

[:D]

ORIGINAL: ogar
OK - some minor suggestions after first glance :
1) Put in some (if necessary, manufactured) start-end dates, such as 'good for the period : May 26 1942 - March 2 1943'.  Yes, you are making these dates up, but they do set the boundaries.  Otherwise you are back to the original documents' weasel wording, and their own contradictory dating.

I though the dates given in the document are sufficient (late 42, etc). In the general 'Pz.Div. Overview' some exact dates are given. Generally the data is good for July 42 until end of Feb 43. I'm planning to set this up as an article on my blog, so that more information can be given in the accompanying text.

ORIGINAL: ogar
2) You cannot have too many - THIS IS BASED ON AUTHORIZED STRENGTHS ONLY - REAL STRENGTHS WILL DIFFER - warnings.  I fell into thinking 'That's wrong' about 1 instance, when I clearly was recollecting the actual monthly strength report for what your spreadsheet shows - the AUTHORIZED strength.  I'd put that disclaimer at the top of each sheet in the spreadsheet.

Yes. The Panzer Strengths table gives available tanks in the Pz.Regts., not authorized. Maybe we misunderstand each other here? Authorized for me means according to KStN (establishment). Available in this case means operational + in repair. However, i think i may go through this again, most of this data is from Jentz Panzertruppen, but in some cases numbers can also be found in Stoves 'Die gepanzerten und motorisierten deutschen Grossverbände 1935-1945' and the Lexikon der Wehrmacht website.

ORIGINAL: ogar
3) For this time period, I think you ought to change the HMG reference to MG-34.  That is what they were.

I have to repeat - Thank you.  This took an immense amount of work, crawling through the sources, compiling the errata, and then re-re-viewing your compilation.  And adding in all the supplemental material, equipment changes/variations, allocation oddities.  That's a lot of work.  Thanks.

HMG in this case is a tripod mounted MG34. I could change it to MG-34 (HMG mounting) or (tripod).

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Telumar

ORIGINAL: ogar
2) You cannot have too many - THIS IS BASED ON AUTHORIZED STRENGTHS ONLY - REAL STRENGTHS WILL DIFFER - warnings.  I fell into thinking 'That's wrong' about 1 instance, when I clearly was recollecting the actual monthly strength report for what your spreadsheet shows - the AUTHORIZED strength.  I'd put that disclaimer at the top of each sheet in the spreadsheet.

Yes. The Panzer Strengths table gives available tanks in the Pz.Regts., not authorized. Maybe we misunderstand each other here? Authorized for me means according to KStN (establishment). Available in this case means operational + in repair. However, i think i may go through this again, most of this data is from Jentz Panzertruppen, but in some cases numbers can also be found in Stoves 'Die gepanzerten und motorisierten deutschen Grossverbände 1935-1945' and the Lexikon der Wehrmacht website.

I have looked at it again - the data given in the table 'Panzer Strengths' is actually operational tanks. Remember, the first date is before the German summer offensive Fall Blau, hence the huge numbers.

[shunwick]

Stefan,

Really nice work. Thank you.

Best wishes,
Steve

[PRUSSIAN TOM]

Thanks! This is great. [:)] I am actually getting a look at how this whole thing fits together.[;)] You guys that do scenarios have always been mysterious beings who know the secrets of the (TAOW) universe.[&o][&o][&o]

[ogar]

@ Telumar,

Thanks for your patience with my nitpicking. 
Re Strengths - the Panzer Strengths tab and the Pz Division Overview tab are _actual_ strengths, but the others list the authorized organization and strength.  As your notes point out, the actual strength (and organization) differs unit to unit and by date.  Perhaps because I took such a long time to adapt to "What ?! 3 PzD has 4 gep. companies plus schw & HQ, while 19 PzD has none !!!?' that I think other folks forget that authorized rarely equals actual which, often, includes, out-of-service as well as operational.

HMG - I think specifics, as you suggest -
I could change it to MG-34 (HMG mounting) or (tripod).
are much better than the generic.

Other than that, I suppose I could go criticize the shading of the color in the secondary column headers on the Krad. tab.  
I repeat - this is great stuff.  It took a lot of effort to find, track and compile. And I really appreciate it.  Thanks.

@Oberst -
Yes, we both belong to the Church of the HMG.  And yes, I too, follow Paremenio's Corollary to Silvanski's (Second) Law :
"Don't like a scenario ?  Go mod your own !" -- Great advice from one of the masters.
and Parm adds -- "Here's some tools to adjust your scenario's equipment." -- Thanks, Parm !

[PRUSSIAN TOM]

Thanks, big guy. How you troops consistently come up with all of the TAOW material astonishes a slacker like me [&:]. I am going to try and apply myself and help out, but you guys keep out coming out with stuff that is so damn much fun, it's hard to be serious about it. Thanks to all of you for keeping my favorite pastime front and center. [&o][&o][&o]

[Telumar]

Dec 1st 2013:
I updated the ecxel file and have replaced the download with the latest version. There were some minor errors (mainly typos).

[USXpat]

Beautiful work and very thorough!

[PRUSSIAN TOM]

Thanks for the update. The detail and format are magnificent. There is a lot of potential in MS Office (and Excel) that I am learning from the TAOW Beached, and other community resources. [:)]

What really grabs me is how easy it is to follow...you are not only thorough, you present a very user-friendly format!
[&o][&o][&o]

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: PRUSSIAN TOM

What really grabs me is how easy it is to follow...you are not only thorough, you present a very user-friendly format!
[&o][&o][&o]

Thanks, nice to hear. And my fear was that it would be too cumbersome and over-filled.. [:D]

[Sertorius1]

Telumar,

This is excellent. I've done a bunch of stuff like this in the past and I know just how difficult it can be.

[Crossroads]

Telumar,

Thank you, excellent research, in easy to read form. Appreciated!