Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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SigUp
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by SigUp »

The question isn't whether this was utilized, everybody knows it was. The question is its effectiveness. And there is a major difference between keeping a few divisions in a pocket (barely) alive and supplying panzers which are rushing forward by air only.
misesfan
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by misesfan »

There were significant air supply drops in both the west and east theaters throughout the war. I read somewhere that in France, 1940, near Abbeville, the Germans airlifted around 400 tons of fuel in one day. (no source, I forget where I read that.) The effectiveness is arguable, given the stupidity of the infamous Halt order at Dunkirk. But the capacity to crush the British armed forces was certainly a potential outcome.
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by swkuh »

Well, IMHO, the game is allowing fueling up far-flung large Panzer forces for deep penetrations. That seems a-historical from my knowledge. The other guy should have a lot to say about that possibility. Perhaps beyond current game engines' capabilities.
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lastkozak
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by lastkozak »

Well, I can see an infantry unit or units being supplied, especially if they are not going too far, or their fuel requirements were minimal, but a Tank Division being kept in fuel and shells? That is not possible beyond subsistence! If pocketed I can see them trying it, but as a main supply source? Or even a supplemental supply source, I do no think it would make an impact! But in the game it does!
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by SigUp »

ORIGINAL: pwieland

There were significant air supply drops in both the west and east theaters throughout the war. I read somewhere that in France, 1940, near Abbeville, the Germans airlifted around 400 tons of fuel in one day. (no source, I forget where I read that.) The effectiveness is arguable, given the stupidity of the infamous Halt order at Dunkirk. But the capacity to crush the British armed forces was certainly a potential outcome.
I doubt that number. If you look above at the post of Aurelian, even on the best day of the Stalingrad airlift only 362 tons were flown in by about 190 planes.
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by Schmart »

ORIGINAL: pwieland

A simple Google search shows that Pelton is correct - wide-ranged use of air to resupply encircled troops by the Wehrmacht - examples from the first page were Korsun, Demyansk, and Rzhev (!!). Sources include the US Army center of military history. As far as use of fuel in panzer operations - the game isnt modelling the Western Front circa 1944. In the East Front, Germany was still able to gain local superiority in certain sectors throughout the war.

Yes it was used on many occasions, but it was rarely successful on a large scale. Demyansk is pretty much the only example, and even then it was only used in a defensive/survival operation. Supplies (especially fuel) consumed during defensive operations are far less than in offensive operations. If air supply should be as effective as can be represented in WitE, then there would be more historical examples of entire Panzer Armies roving behind enemy lines, being supplied primarily from airlift. The fact that there are no such examples, directly implies the ineffectiveness/inability of of such operations. It's one thing to fly in supplies to a stranded Panzer Company/Battalion to keep it moving for another couple days. It's something entirely else to supply an entire Corps, let alone Army.
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by SigUp »

ORIGINAL: Schmart

ORIGINAL: pwieland

A simple Google search shows that Pelton is correct - wide-ranged use of air to resupply encircled troops by the Wehrmacht - examples from the first page were Korsun, Demyansk, and Rzhev (!!). Sources include the US Army center of military history. As far as use of fuel in panzer operations - the game isnt modelling the Western Front circa 1944. In the East Front, Germany was still able to gain local superiority in certain sectors throughout the war.

Yes it was used on many occasions, but it was rarely successful on a large scale. Demyansk is pretty much the only example, and even then it was only used in a defensive/survival operation. Supplies (especially fuel) consumed during defensive operations are far less than in offensive operations. If air supply should be as effective as can be represented in WitE, then there would be more historical examples of entire Panzer Armies roving behind enemy lines, being supplied primarily from airlift. The fact that there are no such examples, directly implies the ineffectiveness/inability of of such operations. It's one thing to fly in supplies to a stranded Panzer Company/Battalion to keep it moving for another couple days. It's something entirely else to supply an entire Corps, let alone Army.
If this was possible the Western Allies with the ressources at their disposal would have been plenty stupid not to do it when they ran into supply troubles after the breakout from Normandy.
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by Schmart »

ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: pwieland

There were significant air supply drops in both the west and east theaters throughout the war. I read somewhere that in France, 1940, near Abbeville, the Germans airlifted around 400 tons of fuel in one day. (no source, I forget where I read that.) The effectiveness is arguable, given the stupidity of the infamous Halt order at Dunkirk. But the capacity to crush the British armed forces was certainly a potential outcome.
I doubt that number. If you look above at the post of Aurelian, even on the best day of the Stalingrad airlift only 362 tons were flown in by about 190 planes.

According to some stats, the Demyansk airlift maxed out at 544 tons in a single day, so technically it was possible. However, it took some time to get things organized enough for the Luftwaffe to get to even 300 tons a day. And that was a well organized, established, and sustained operation. 400 tons for a single day in a one-off operation? That would require multiple sorties by the entire Ju-52 fleet... That scale and success would likely be a well known operation.

Interestingly, here's probably another major reason the Germans didn't/couldn't pull off more major airlift operations. The very last sentence of the link I provided above:

"Secondly, the consumption of 42,155 tons of aviation fuel – roughly one-third of the Third Reich’s production of aviation fuel for one month – was an exorbitant waste of fuel that the Luftwaffe would later regret."

Simply, these types of operations are horribly inefficient and expensive means of transporting men and supplies.
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by Schmart »

ORIGINAL: SigUp

ORIGINAL: Schmart

ORIGINAL: pwieland

A simple Google search shows that Pelton is correct - wide-ranged use of air to resupply encircled troops by the Wehrmacht - examples from the first page were Korsun, Demyansk, and Rzhev (!!). Sources include the US Army center of military history. As far as use of fuel in panzer operations - the game isnt modelling the Western Front circa 1944. In the East Front, Germany was still able to gain local superiority in certain sectors throughout the war.

Yes it was used on many occasions, but it was rarely successful on a large scale. Demyansk is pretty much the only example, and even then it was only used in a defensive/survival operation. Supplies (especially fuel) consumed during defensive operations are far less than in offensive operations. If air supply should be as effective as can be represented in WitE, then there would be more historical examples of entire Panzer Armies roving behind enemy lines, being supplied primarily from airlift. The fact that there are no such examples, directly implies the ineffectiveness/inability of of such operations. It's one thing to fly in supplies to a stranded Panzer Company/Battalion to keep it moving for another couple days. It's something entirely else to supply an entire Corps, let alone Army.
If this was possible the Western Allies with the ressources at their disposal would have been plenty stupid not to do it when they ran into supply troubles after the breakout from Normandy.

Exactly the point I made in the previous thread. If the Allies, with their thousands of transport planes and vast supplies of fuel didn't/couldn't do it, what makes the Germans able to do it with a couple hundred planes and a shoe-string fuel supply?
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lastkozak
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by lastkozak »

Indeed SigUp!

In fact Operation market Garden was a call based upon supply limits. Patton was pissed, that they were giving the supplies for Monty's plan to end the war by Christmas! Further the allies, for many reasons, found it impossible to supply a reduced Airborne division. Their plan was to supply them for a day or two, at most 4 days. they never expected it to be a week!



Patton only had a corps! Why not airdrop supplies from England to him? because they couldn't! For that matter why build mulberry ports at all? If all they had to do was airdrop supplies to the beachhead? No let me guess, they would land the planes on an improvised landing strip on the hard sand at low tide, right? (Or float a flat iceberg/ice-sheet down from Scapa Flow, so they could have an airstrip docked off the beach?

Airdrop supplies, is not possible for an Offensive Panzer Armees! The game should at least allow this to be an option, but not allow Panzer divisions to receive supplies this way, or the units need to be isolated first, or the computer does not let you do it.
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by misesfan »

- I found my source - The Blitzkrieg Legend The author's source was from von Kleist's diary.
- Regarding Allied Air Supply efforts, there were quite a few of those. One that comes to mind is the Battle of Mandalay during the Burma campaign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... d_Mandalay).
- I dont think anyone is arguing that sustained operations can be supplied via airlift alone. However, it was a tool that could be used in a pinch.
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lastkozak
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by lastkozak »

The Battle of Mandalay was an infantry only situation, which most admit is feasible.

As for Kleist's Diary, it is a source, but if he was correct, why is it not mentioned in other sources? Perhaps some bias?

My Diary, says I am an amazing guy, and a fantastic lover! Therefore it must be true![:D]

I am skeptical to be listening to some Nazi, who probably has blood on his hands. Not to put down your efforts of trying to find a decent source, the attempt is commendable, but lets face it, do we really want to use the same strategy and tactics as the losing side in the war? It obviously did not work very well for them now did it?

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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by misesfan »

von Kleist was not a Nazi and eyewitness sources are generally accepted as the most reliable source of information for a historical event. As for the IV Corps formations participating in Mandalay, the 17th Indian Division was completely motorized with an attached Tank Brigade (see the wiki page..)

I dont intend to be argumentative, so apologies if my replies are interpreted in that fashion. I enjoy debating military "stuff." :) In fact, I dont have an axe to grind here. My opinion - I think Pelton is spot-on with his argument regarding the combat and logistics model of the game.

I agree with you that following the strategy of a losing nation isnt a wise course of action.
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by swkuh »

Seems this discussion is complete. Once again, "would'a, should'a, could'a" drives game developers crazy.

Soviet players seem to not be given credit for timely response to these amazing air supply operations; maybe game doesn't give the opponent the right tools to stop the foolishness.
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by Bozo_the_Clown »

My Diary, says I am an amazing guy, and a fantastic lover! Therefore it must be true!

[:D][:D][:D]

Very true. These diaries are all biased. Hence the myth the German Generals created that they could have won the war if Hitler hadn't intervened.
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by Brandle »

Very true Bozo.

The move to Kiev was considered a death nail to the capture of Moscow in '41. Many consider the unhalted panzer drive on Moscow the best strategy but that would have needed continuous resupply by air, over ever increasing distances from the supply bases with no flank security at all. I think that was mainly Guderians plan but either way, its amazing how much blame Hitler gets for being a few miles of channel and a few kilometers of steppe away from global domination.

Odd how Napoleon is a genius in history and Hitler is a bumbling fool.
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by lastkozak »

Napoleon is described as a Genius because he obviously was. There are many things which still exist in our society today which were the result of Napoleon. Further the concept of using artillery by Napoleon in mass, was his idea and his alone. He essentially created a new form of warfare tactics which were incredibly successful, but when the enemy used the same tactics, they were successful for them as well.

Hitler did not create Blitzkrieg, but the person who did, is the Genius. The same can be said for those who realized the effectiveness of using CV's in the Pacific, and the insights of using airborne, and gliders and later helicopters.

Hitler did nothing but rely on what his Generals told him about Tanks, and reflect on his own experiences in WW1 to agree with the. Hitler began believing he was the reason for the success and he was the one who knew best. Thus his and Germany's downfall. Thank God!
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RE: Historical accuracy of Air dropping fuel

Post by Brandle »

Hans von Seekt
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