People not wanting the manuals

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: shaddock

Careful now, or you'll have the Judean People's Front Crack Suicide Squad after you!

now we're getting somewhere in the Mysteries. It's simple really. That grail of documents we keep hearing tell of, the fabled "RAW" we all want to bicker and argue about on this friendly occasion, was actually written by Joseph of Arimathea. In Aramaic! That explains everything! All these years, simply because Steve had to convert it all to Australian to create the Codex we bow to now, "RAC." Don't forget Joseph's Last Word, it was a classic.......

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

Now there is irony, I post a comment detailing the process they state they would go to, to avoid malicious shipping add ons (not the original cost of shipping, just the malicious add ons)...

No, actually people are also objecting to paying $50+ for shipping for an item that they don't want.

[shaddock]

I think it's more like they produced a package. That package is the game sent via download and disk, and the books. They simply assumed everyone would want the entire package and made enough books to meet the expected demand. Two things happened: 1st some didn't want the books, 2nd some didn't want to pay the extra $$ associated with the books, i.e. shipping. Once the initial batch of packages are sold (with the books) then a new package will be sold. Perhaps at that time new packages will be offered, based upon peoples responses to the original package.

[Dr. Foo]

ORIGINAL: shaddock

Perhaps at that time new packages will be offered, based upon peoples responses to the original package.

Yeah, I'd be surprised if the books are even offered a year from now. They are hardcovers and must be very expensive to produce. Therefore, those that have them but don't want them, might be able to make some money selling them on eBay if they are discontinued.

[DSWargamer]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

Now there is irony, I post a comment detailing the process they state they would go to, to avoid malicious shipping add ons (not the original cost of shipping, just the malicious add ons)...

No, actually people are also objecting to paying $50+ for shipping for an item that they don't want.

Well I have seen that some people actually seem to complain regardless of how you try to please them

I would though like to see some examples of shipping ambushes if any have occurred at all.

I personally will stick to my conclusion that the inclusion of the pdf files was an error. No pdf files would have meant you want the game or you don't no argument possible.

Then I would likely also add, that sometimes digital download is a mixed blessing. If they had put the game on sale, and no digital download, it would still have gotten here prompt like, and I wouldn't have suffered any trauma from waiting. and they wouldn't have persons wanting just the digital download.

Looks like it has been a rough couple of years for Slitherine Group learning you can't please all of the people all of the time.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
I personally will stick to my conclusion that the inclusion of the pdf files was an error. No pdf files would have meant you want the game or you don't no argument possible.

Then I would likely also add, that sometimes digital download is a mixed blessing. If they had put the game on sale, and no digital download, it would still have gotten here prompt like, and I wouldn't have suffered any trauma from waiting. and they wouldn't have persons wanting just the digital download.

I would be upset about your self-centered, close-minded, and luddite opinions about how computer war games should be sold if I thought there was the slightest chance you'd ever play any kind of role in making this kind of decision for a company in the business of selling computer war games.

But I don't see much risk of that, so I'll limit my reaction to pure amusement at your curmudgeonly notion that everyone should agree with you about how to enjoy this game.

[bo]

Ok gentlemen isn't this conversation in the posts kinda moot at this point [:(] It is what it is. I am not saying don't post, just keep it civil please.

Bo

[DSWargamer]

Thank the maker I wasn't born a man

Why the hell do I come here?

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
I personally will stick to my conclusion that the inclusion of the pdf files was an error. No pdf files would have meant you want the game or you don't no argument possible.

Then I would likely also add, that sometimes digital download is a mixed blessing. If they had put the game on sale, and no digital download, it would still have gotten here prompt like, and I wouldn't have suffered any trauma from waiting. and they wouldn't have persons wanting just the digital download.

I would be upset about your self-centered, close-minded, and luddite opinions about how computer war games should be sold if I thought there was the slightest chance you'd ever play any kind of role in making this kind of decision for a company in the business of selling computer war games.

But I don't see much risk of that, so I'll limit my reaction to pure amusement at your curmudgeonly notion that everyone should agree with you about how to enjoy this game.

Em, this isnt a computer war game. It is an adaptation of a board game. A board game that is still in print. You keep harping on this but this game is NOT the same as other Matrix titles. So you should expect and in fact are seeing a difference in the distribution. It is not to hard to infer that there are licensing restrictions on how they can distribute the game, and that until those restrictions are lifted or go away, you will not see any other alternatives.

Of course as in every situation, those displeased with the status quo are the most vociferous in pronouncing its tyrannical despicableness. Something else to expect and in fact are seeing.

I frankly do not care what any individuals personal perspective is but those who accuse Matrix of stupidity and whine because they 'cant' buy the game need to find somewhere else to go. At this point you either buy it is as is or just quit bothering the rest of us enjoying the game.

[brian brian]

When you start yet another thread to argue something, you shouldn't act surprised when people take you up on the offer.

[jomni]

Printed Manual gets old. eManual gets updated when changes are made to the game.

[Numdydar]

But the point here is this is NOT a computer game that will have the manuals updated. At least not for a long time. This is because the rules of the board game will have to change first. The manuals already have all the optional rules in them even though some of these are not yet coded. So people need to stop thinking of this game as something that is going to change a lot over the next year because it is not. The manulas already discuss AI play, PBEM etc., so even when these are added in the maunuals will still be current.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
But the point here is this is NOT a computer game that will have the manuals updated. At least not for a long time. This is because the rules of the board game will have to change first.

But this isn't really true; in addition to the typical errata which appears for any manual, there are huge sections of the manuals which deal specifically with the computer game, not the boardgame. For instance, I'm in the middle of a 100 pp section on the various forms, and then there is the entire third manual (which is helpfully entitled Rules as Coded).

And so the fact that this is an adaptation of a board game does not mean that it is not a computer game. Of course there may be licensing restrictions, but other Matrix adaptations of in-print board games (ie, Conflict of Heroes) do not have the same.

[Numdydar]

I agree with what you say, but the point I was making is that the manuals will not be changing anytime soon. Unlike games like War in the East and War in the Pacific AE which all have had massive changes to the game so that the manuals between release and now do not reflect exactly how the games currently work.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Unlike games like War in the East and War in the Pacific AE which all have had massive changes to the game so that the manuals between release and now do not reflect exactly how the games currently work.

Yup, agreed, and that is one of the attractions of this game to me--it appears to be based on a mature, well-thought out set of rules that have retained popularity for 25 years, which is no small feat.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
But the point here is this is NOT a computer game that will have the manuals updated. At least not for a long time. This is because the rules of the board game will have to change first.

But this isn't really true; in addition to the typical errata which appears for any manual, there are huge sections of the manuals which deal specifically with the computer game, not the boardgame. For instance, I'm in the middle of a 100 pp section on the various forms, and then there is the entire third manual (which is helpfully entitled Rules as Coded).

And so the fact that this is an adaptation of a board game does not mean that it is not a computer game. Of course there may be licensing restrictions, but other Matrix adaptations of in-print board games (ie, Conflict of Heroes) do not have the same.

The fact that it is an adaptation answers your point about the rules. Sure there are differences but the ties remain strong. Whether other adaptations that you reference differ is quite irrelevant.

As always I'm firmly of the belief that licensing restrictions are the issue here and I frankly have no problem with that. ADG has contributed more to my gaming experience than any other company in my life and I am totally in support of ensuring their success through this release.

[Solaristics]

ORIGINAL: bo
I am not saying don't post, just keep it civil please.

Thanks Bo. Some of the language on this thread is drifting toward something I'd expect to see on a World of Tanks forum, not one for the more genteel and discerning folk that Matrix games attract [;)]. Some people are happy to pay shipping and possible extra tax charges to get a physical copy of the game and manuals, and some would prefer to just get a digital copy of the game. Who's right? No one of course, it is just a matter of personal taste and preference. I don't think there is a need to insult each other over personal tastes and preference since we all seem to agree that the game is potentially awesome.

[Numdydar]

No. The game IS awesome [:)] Not potentially lol. However it does have the potential to get even better over time [:)]

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
No. The game IS awesome Not potentially lol. However it does have the potential to get even better over time

Just curious, this game has been out for more than twenty years, do you think there's really much room for further improvement, or did you have in mind that the release of the computer version could give a boost to player numbers and general community interest?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
No. The game IS awesome Not potentially lol. However it does have the potential to get even better over time

Just curious, this game has been out for more than twenty years, do you think there's really much room for further improvement, or did you have in mind that the release of the computer version could give a boost to player numbers and general community interest?

warspite1

I think the game being on computer opens it up to lots of possibilities (realistic population nos. for one). As far as the board game is concerned, it has been constantly evolving since it began.

However, all that aside, I think there is enough to do with the game as is without worrying about the future i.e. optionals, net play, PBEM, AI.

Personally I say 100% focus on getting this right and there will be plenty of people interested in whatever comes next. Get this wrong and they will walk away in frustration and disappointment.