Strange Automatic Promotion Design Decisions

Civil War 2 is the definitive grand strategy game of the period. It is a turn based regional game with an emphasis on playability and historical accuracy. It is built on the renowned AGE game engine, with a modern and intuitive interface that makes it easy to learn yet hard to master.
This historical operational strategy game with a simultaneous turn-based engine (WEGO system) that places players at the head of the USA or CSA during the American Civil War (1861-1865).

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Q-Ball
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Strange Automatic Promotion Design Decisions

Post by Q-Ball »

Because of how leader promotions are designed and the structure of the game, generals who are automatically promoted or enter as 2* generals are important; invariably, they become Corps commanders. I find though some of the decisions on WHO is selected for this to be very curious, and I wonder why the designers chose NOT to follow history.

I'll start with the CSA side, but there are some similar items on the Union side.

The following leaders receive automatic early promotion to 2*, or enter as 2*:

Longstreet, Jackson, GW Smith, Polk, Theo Holmes:
All of these make sense; by early '62, they were all either Corps or Wing Commanders, or Department Commanders

Forney,Ed Johnson: These two make no sense at all.

Forney wasn't promoted to Confederate Major General until Oct 1862. In the CSA Army, Major Genl was a DIVISION commander, or a game equivalent of 1*. He never commanded anything larger than a division; he was a division commander in the Vicksburg campaign.

Ed Johnson was wounded most of 1862, and wasn't given a division until 1863. Why does he get 2*?

On the other side, several CSA leaders were given Corps or Army commands with NO battle experience, including:

Bragg: Corps commander at Shiloh
Van Dorn: Appointed Dept Commander, first action was Pea Ridge, where he commanded Army of the West
Magruder: Commanded wing of ANV in Peninsula Campaign; only prior action at skirmish of Big Bethel
Hardee: Corps commander at Shiloh

I think these should be changed. I don't think it would radically impact game balance to NOT include Forney and E. Johnson as 2*, but instead auto-promote these 4 guys. If 4 is too many, you could bump Magruder down.

If the goal is game balance, I would at least advocate Bragg and Van Dorn, in lieu of Forney and Johnson, and make Magruder and Hardee fight for it

Pemberton is another that should enter as a 3*, just later than he does.

Just off the top of my head, on the Union side Hamilton, Gilbert, are at least a couple head scratchers as early 2*.

Anyway, I can pull more detail on the Union side, I just don't understand that design decision
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RE: Strange Automatic Promotion Design Decisions

Post by Q-Ball »

On the Union side, these 4 are very puzzling 2* leaders in-game:

Hiram Berry: Brigade commander until late 1862, then given a division, killed at Chancellorsville
Charles Hamilton: Division commander, removed by McClellan, promoted in Sept 1862 to Maj Gen, then resigned. Never commanded anything larger than division
Charles Gilbert: In game, a 2* general in early 1862.....at which time he was still a CAPTAIN in the regular army! He was a temporary Corps commander at Perryville in late 1862, but promotion was never confirmed by congress
John Dix: Born in 1798, considered too old for a field command, and he never had one

There are some auto promotions that do make sense; all the original corps commanders in the AoP (Heintzelman, Sumner, Keyes, Franklin).

If for game balance purposes the Union needs more 2* if these guys above are removed, then may I suggest:

Sam Curtis: First action was Pea Ridge, where he was the Army commander
Hurlbut: A little thin, but he commanded a large division at Shiloh, and commanded Dept of West TN much of the war. I think this one makes sense

Aurelian
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RE: Strange Automatic Promotion Design Decisions

Post by Aurelian »

Well, many if not most were for political reasons. Same as the Army appointments. No one in their right mind wants Butler as an Army commander. But you have to give him one to avoid the political cost of not doing so.
 
Look at McClellan. The game promotes him to the top if you don't take Manassass. But what does he do in the game to deserve it? (he got it based on his performance in West Virginia, but in the game, he's locked in Cincinnati
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Q-Ball
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RE: Strange Automatic Promotion Design Decisions

Post by Q-Ball »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Well, many if not most were for political reasons. Same as the Army appointments. No one in their right mind wants Butler as an Army commander. But you have to give him one to avoid the political cost of not doing so.

Look at McClellan. The game promotes him to the top if you don't take Manassass. But what does he do in the game to deserve it? (he got it based on his performance in West Virginia, but in the game, he's locked in Cincinnati

I have no problem with those leaders; the fact you use them is reflected in the game. They attained the high rank they have in the game, legitimately.

My post is not about that. It's about why certain leaders are given 2*, without battles, when they never actually commanded a Corps....ever. Why? Why is John Forney a corps commander instead of, say, Bragg?

And since a certain number of 2* were granted, why not just make the guys 2* who actually WERE given those ranks without any combat?
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RE: Strange Automatic Promotion Design Decisions

Post by Ace1_slith »

+1
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Q-Ball
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RE: Strange Automatic Promotion Design Decisions

Post by Q-Ball »

ORIGINAL: Ace1

+1

Thanks, understand you have some pull around here....can we get those changes made, at least in a game-balance neutral way?

cmdrsam
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RE: Strange Automatic Promotion Design Decisions

Post by cmdrsam »

Maybe, and I am just throwing these out here, but maybe it was designed on seniority on why some the leaders you suggest.

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/csa-maj ... ity.26021/
CSA

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/usa-maj ... ity.73959/
USA
Ace1_slith
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RE: Strange Automatic Promotion Design Decisions

Post by Ace1_slith »

At Peninsula Corps command structure was not yet fully implemented, and after Peninsula he was shoved west, so I would not auto promote Magruder.

About, Bragg, Hardee, VanDorn, you have my full backing.

I am not as familiar with Union generals, so I cannot comment on them. Curtis could deserve auto promotion. The generals you said never took the field - did they held the rank. If they did, regardless in the filed or not I would keep their ranking. It is players decision whether to keep hem in the field or not. Union has a lot lousy 3 star generals that commanded corps and armies. It should be as well in the game - no need to auto-promote generals just for balance issues.
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RE: Strange Automatic Promotion Design Decisions

Post by Gilmer »

Every game I have ever played about The Civil War has had McClellan in Ohio at the start of the game, in or around Cinci. Not being up on The Civil War as much as others, should he be there or are they all getting that wrong?
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RE: Strange Automatic Promotion Design Decisions

Post by Q-Ball »

ORIGINAL: Ace1

At Peninsula Corps command structure was not yet fully implemented, and after Peninsula he was shoved west, so I would not auto promote Magruder.

About, Bragg, Hardee, VanDorn, you have my full backing.

I am not as familiar with Union generals, so I cannot comment on them. Curtis could deserve auto promotion. The generals you said never took the field - did they held the rank. If they did, regardless in the filed or not I would keep their ranking. It is players decision whether to keep hem in the field or not. Union has a lot lousy 3 star generals that commanded corps and armies. It should be as well in the game - no need to auto-promote generals just for balance issues.

If you mean the actual rank of Brevet Major General in the Union army, all of them I mentioned except Gilbert actually did hold the rank at some point. However, none of them actually commanded a Corps. And none of them were promoted as early as they are in-game.

Should they all get an auto promotion then? If you promote all commanders automatically who attained the Brevet rank of Major General, that's going to be alot.

Confederate general ranks were different, i.e. more liberal, and alot more attained Major general.

I think rather than look at the number of stars on the shoulder, you need to look at the functional command that leader attained without a battle, that's what I was going on.

On that basis, a ton of changes need to be made, and the goal should be to get historical commanders in charge early, like Van Dorn, Bragg, Curtis, instead of Forney, Hamilton, Berry, etc, commanders who barely registered in Civil War history
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RE: Strange Automatic Promotion Design Decisions

Post by Toro12 »

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

Every game I have ever played about The Civil War has had McClellan in Ohio at the start of the game, in or around Cinci. Not being up on The Civil War as much as others, should he be there or are they all getting that wrong?


McClellan was stationed in Cincinnati at the start of the war, and actually conducted the W.Va campaign from Cincinnati (never went to the actual site). Of course, this does suggest that perhaps generals of armies/corps need not be at the location of the army/corps? Many, on both sides, chose to work out of a hotel and direct affairs from afar. (This, likewise, suggests that perhaps divisions should be able to be attached to armies and not through corps? Yikes! Won't go there!)
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