People not wanting the manuals

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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CheerfullyInsane
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by CheerfullyInsane »

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

I understand....... that people wanted this game to be a comfortable purchase. A nice computer game purchase like all the rest. Where they could sit and complain, oooooh come on, 70 bucks is asking too much, get with the program, this is 2013, I should be able to get a digital download for slightly less, 60 bucks eh. And then there would be those waiting for the seasonal sale in 2 years and wanting it for 50 bucks. And then the person expecting it in 5 years to be massively discounted, because it's an old game.

I suppose some simply can't wrap their head around the idea, that World in Flames is a BOARD GAME, and through a generous arrangement, ADG has made it ok to put it into computer form, make it possible to display it on a computer, and have it as a means to defeat the need for a room killing map monster.

But it's till a board game. ADG COULD have said, no, and not allowed anyone to make it into the computer version it is.

What is amazing to me is that even after 2-3 threads with numerous posts saying we're willing to pay the same for the DD only, people STILL don't get it.
So....Once more for the hard of hearing:
Nobody is asking for a discount, special considerations or anything like that.
What we're asking is not having to subsidize FedEx and the various national tax-collectors by having hard-copies we don't want forced upon us.
Oh, and it's not a boardgame. Boardgames usually come with...y'know....boards.
Yeah they COULD have made it a digital download, no damned books. But that likely was never the objective.
If it had been me, I would not have made the pdf files. It would have solved the problem. I guess Slitherine Group has learned a valuable lesson here.
Let me get this straight....
You'd allow people to buy the game, give them the digital download, but then they'd have to wait 1-2 weeks for the manuals to arrive before they could actually play it?
And this would've 'solved the problem'? [:D]
As for the cost, hmm I could start listing all the other notable, and famous wargames, all board games, that generally speaking don't cost 10s of dollars, but hundreds of dollars. I know of plenty that cost 200 and 300 bucks. I know that ASL has single modules that cost as much as computer World in Flames. And the shipping isn't free, they are not sold by Amazon.

Oh, I know. My ASL collection has set me back far more than I care to think about.
But this isn't a boardgame. The lack of a board and counters is a bit of a clue, as is the fact that it's distributed by a software company.
Oh, and here's an interesting nugget of information. If you choose to buy the WiF boardgame from ADG, shipping is included. It says so right there on their web-site.
Funny that......
It is unfortunate that Slitherine Group has made an error in the case of this game, in assessing the reaction by some, of being told the manuals were part of the purchase. It's unfortunate some parts of the planet suck.

The game is sold WITH manuals, in the same way board games are sold WITH counters. It's part of the product.

So if Empires in Arms was sold WITH horses, you'd be okay with that too?
Or are you saying that if Matrix decides to offer a DD-only option, that the price should be lowered?
It is after all no longer a complete product, according to you.
Some of us are out here facepalming thinking that some of you are making the hobby look like it is rife with spoiled entitled brats disguised as old men.

And yet others are left a little confused as to why people insist on inventing their own set of motives, instead of reading what we actually write.
But, as you said, some parts of the planet suck.
"Something is always wrong, Baldrick. The fact that I'm not a millionaire aristocrat with the sexual capacity of a rutting rhino is a constant niggle"
- Edmund Blackadder
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Neilster
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by Neilster »

@Hondo...very good [:D]

Cheers, Neilster
Cheers, Neilster
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Solaristics
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by Solaristics »

ORIGINAL: CheerfullyInsane
So if Empires in Arms was sold WITH horses, you'd be okay with that too?

I would! How awesome! No, wait, they'll be held up for 6 months in quarantine. Is there a "no horses, download only" option? Real horses, what were they thinking?! But can the game really be properly enjoyed without real horses? What a dilemma!
brian brian
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by brian brian »

I decided a fair while back now that I simply don't want to purchase physical content, for the most part, though I will continue to purchase kits for the World in Flames board game, because I like playing face-to-face with the counters on a map, which is quite a striking sight and unlike anything you will experience on a computer. So I well understand the sentiment that there is nothing like reading a hardback book. Though that doesn't make any difference to me any more for books. Games are a fun social activity.

But for the most part, I don't want to buy a DVD in a case; I don't want to buy a book that I could read on a screen. I don't even want such items produced for me, though I understand not everyone feels this way, and that's perfectly fine. I use more than enough of the world's resources just getting the electricity to enjoy non-physical content. I don't want it shipped to me, and I don't want to put it somewhere when it arrives. I spend a lot of time traveling and I just don't need any more physical items to deal with. I also want as much of my money as possible to go into the pockets of Steve and Harry, rather than some printing company somewhere.

I don't need or want information delivered on physical content, and that seems like a reasonable and simple request when purchasing it in the 21st century, and it is just stupefying that this increasingly common sentiment can be so ignored and rejected, quite aside from quite valid VAT/customs and shipping costs.

And ironically, by being a dedicated customer and player of the physical-on-paper World in Flames game system, purchasing 3 full copies plus almost every accessory over the years including the wonderful rolled, never folded map set, I have the least amount of need for anything in those books. Indeed, a fair bit of that content I already own, on paper. After all these years of waiting for a full, paper-less electronic edition of my favorite game, I have to purchase 5 more pounds of paper.

If there is no choice but to acquire more physical content, a bit more thought could have been put into the package of both the game and the map set. Players would benefit greatly from a few laminated sets of charts, outside of the hard-bound rather than spiral-bound books, such as those boring old physical game players use till they wear out, thus the suggestion to laminate them. I sincerely hope there are at least some simple .pdf files of only the charts, outside of the books, but I don't know for sure yet. And even with the map set that I will be purchasing — players could really use an improved, more playable and physically manageable version of the huge space on the globe between Pearl Harbor, Iceland, and Dakar (i.e. a new improved American mini-map). Useful items such as those would probably tip me back towards being very happy there is a physical option, though I would hope such an accessory kit would be available, yes, without 3 hardbound volumes.

Overall it just really amazes me that this deal over the books is the end result of an amazingly open-to-the-customers project development process. And perhaps all of this is quite self-centered. I don't care. I'm the customer.
bo
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by bo »

I usually agreee with you on things posted here brian and I do not feel knowledgeable enough about the Wif board game and buying computer games as to what should be or not be in the purchase of said games to contradict you, but one thing is for sure "you are the customer."

Bo
shaddock
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by shaddock »

-.. --- -.-. .-.. --- .-.. -. . .. .-.. ... - . .-.
save the carrots; eat a vegan!
bo
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: shaddock

-.. --- -.-. .-.. --- .-.. -. . .. .-.. ... - . .-.
ok shaddock

little rusty at this but I will try

DOCLOL NEILSTER

Ok I give up?

Bo
DSWargamer
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by DSWargamer »

I do actually think it is funny, but, maybe they SHOULD charge some of you FULL price, and then NOT ship the books. And in that way, you get what you claim you desire, just the digital download, NO books, NO cd too of course as it comes with the books.

So in my case, it would have been 160 bucks after shipping and taxes, and no physical shipment. Because as you are saying, you want to pay the same price as physical, just no 'surprise' sum at your door tacked on as additional.

That's idiotic, but hey, it's your money. Why argue with a person demanding to spend 160 bucks on a digital download, when I can get the same thing AND the books.

All the silly comments about clay tablets, and archaic forms of communication have been creative I admit.

It's a shame one person isn't on the forums today though. He sure picked the wrong time to be absent.
I have too many too complicated wargames, and not enough sufficiently interested non wargamer friends.
bo
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by bo »

[He sure picked the wrong time to be absent[/quote]

And who might that be [&:]

Bo
shaddock
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by shaddock »

Hey bo it's supposed to be ZOC LOL Neilster.
save the carrots; eat a vegan!
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henri51
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by henri51 »

ORIGINAL: CheerfullyInsane

So if Empires in Arms was sold WITH horses, you'd be okay with that too?

Well I would like a horse, but my condo does not allow animals...[:(]
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by JiminyJickers »

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

I do actually think it is funny, but, maybe they SHOULD charge some of you FULL price, and then NOT ship the books. And in that way, you get what you claim you desire, just the digital download, NO books, NO cd too of course as it comes with the books.

So in my case, it would have been 160 bucks after shipping and taxes, and no physical shipment. Because as you are saying, you want to pay the same price as physical, just no 'surprise' sum at your door tacked on as additional.

That's idiotic, but hey, it's your money. Why argue with a person demanding to spend 160 bucks on a digital download, when I can get the same thing AND the books.

All the silly comments about clay tablets, and archaic forms of communication have been creative I admit.

It's a shame one person isn't on the forums today though. He sure picked the wrong time to be absent.

Exactly, I am happy to pay full price, excluding shipping charges for this game.

But you are arguing that I should not be allowed to play the game, because I don't value the physical items. How can people be so close minded that they want to force everyone to have to think the same was as them. All I want it the option to buy digital only, but you are saying that I shouldn't have that option because you prefer the printed manuals.

It saddens me that you would force me not to enjoy this game along with you. We could both enjoy it and play it multiplayer together and even become friends through our love of this type of game, but currently you are saying that I shouldn't be allowed to play it, because it's your way or the highway.

What has this community come to? All I want is a choice. I'm not saying that they shouldn't sell the physical version, I would never dream of denying you the option of buying the books and maps and everything.

Imagine if it was reversed and there was no physical manuals, some people arguing that people who want printed manuals should not not be allowed to buy the product because they don't understand that is meant to be a digital game only. You would be rightly upset that you should be allowed to choose, given that Matrix has always offered both physical and digital options in the past.

I just don't get why you are so against me playing this game. Can't we both be allowed to enjoy this great game?
bo
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: shaddock

Hey bo it's supposed to be ZOC LOL Neilster.


Good thing you were not sending morse code messages for the US in WW2 [:D]


_ _ . . = Z

Bo
shaddock
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by shaddock »

You're right bo. When I wrote it down, the two dashes blended together!
save the carrots; eat a vegan!
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Arnir
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by Arnir »

I wish I could find a face palm smiley. This isn't a computer game? Uh, yes it is. A computer port of a board game but a computer game nonetheless. Even having to say this makes me worry about the Matrix boards. I didn't want to say anything, but this is getting a bit weird to me. Hyperbole is common on gaming boards everywhere, but really? I could say, "why have these boards (read forums) when it is a board game? Why not use the ADG forums spread around the internet?"

Good humor for the rest.

We could always let Matrix decide: "Do you want those of us who see this as a computer game be quiet and leave?" I think that is a silly question, but let's bring on the silly. "No one expects the WiF Inquisition!" (sorry, best I can do this time of night [;)] ) I hope everyone can enjoy the game for what it is to them. No need to force everyone to march in lockstep.
shaddock
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by shaddock »

Careful now, or you'll have the Judean People's Front Crack Suicide Squad after you!
save the carrots; eat a vegan!
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Gizuria
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by Gizuria »

I do actually think it is funny, but, maybe they SHOULD charge some of you FULL price, and then NOT ship the books. And in that way, you get what you claim you desire, just the digital download, NO books, NO cd too of course as it comes with the books.

And then wait for the inevitable plague of law suites that would be sure to follow?[:D]
So in my case, it would have been 160 bucks after shipping and taxes, and no physical shipment. Because as you are saying, you want to pay the same price as physical, just no 'surprise' sum at your door tacked on as additional.

People want to pay the full digital price for the game which is about US$100 but do not want to pay the additional shipping costs for books they do not want or need, in my case an additional $42 with further charges on top of that for import duties, VAT etc. That seems to me to be an astonishing display of loyalty and committment to the game designers from these members of the community and deserves real respect and not this...
Some of us are out here facepalming thinking that some of you are making the hobby look like it is rife with spoiled entitled brats disguised as old men.

The designers and Matrix's spokesman have stated that they took a cut in their profit margins to include these deluxe books as part of the package. The customers who are offering to pay the full whack without the books are clearly offering to give MORE money back to the designer and Matrix rather than into the pockets of Fedex. More than you have paid to support them.
ess1
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by ess1 »

ORIGINAL: Neilster

I'm still unclear about this section on Zones of Control...

Cheers, Neilster


Image

It is upside down you silly Aussie [:)]

Congrats. on beating Ireland. Roll on the Tests

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henri51
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by henri51 »

Like my brother used to say:"If you are gonna be silly, you might as well go all the way!"
DSWargamer
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RE: People not wanting the manuals

Post by DSWargamer »

Now there is irony, I post a comment detailing the process they state they would go to, to avoid malicious shipping add ons (not the original cost of shipping, just the malicious add ons), and they state they want the game so much, they would even forgo getting the physical item, and just pay the price they would have paid, if they were being shipped the physical items, but without the physical items ever being actually shipped for real, in a bid to eliminate all chance of those malicious add ons ever occurring (because if nothing is ever actually shipped, then no intermediaries will ever get the chance to add them on), and people are reacting as if it was my crazy idea :)

I don't know why they can't not ship the books. I don't really care to know. It is almost certainly a privately arrived at business deal, and no amount of angst is going to get the information out of any official voice if they are not inclined to disclose it. And as we never get told simple basic stats like units sold, I can't actually see them releasing private information like this.

i was not charged any extra on the shipment. I have witnessed comments that customers in the UK have not been charged any extra. Hell the entire debate might have been a great deal of angst about nothing for all we know. Has anyone as of this moment, had their parcel arrive, and a deliver person tell them to fork over an extra 40 bucks yet?

I mean, that sort of thing DOES happen. I once refused a deliver from concert dvd from Japan Amazon when they wanted 25 bucks on top of an already crazy shipping cost. My son once got dinged for buying a simple computer keyboard from the US. It does happen. Has it yet happened here? It usually only happens when the source does nothing at all the avoid it. My invoice literally screams out of Matrix Games intentionally making the effort to make my shipment 'easier' through customs. To be certain, my total invoice was NOT worth 40 bucks :)
But that is what it reads. Now, if it had gone lost in the mail, it would only be insurable for the worth of a 40 dollar item.
I have too many too complicated wargames, and not enough sufficiently interested non wargamer friends.
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