Soviet counterattacks in '41

[chuckbbq]

I'm playing a server game against a soviet opponent, and it seems he's quite successful at counter attacking German armor divisions to reopen pockets, often at far below 1:1 odds based on combat factors, and often 1:2. Meanwhile it seems I have to attack at 2:1 to get retreats. Before you think that my armored units are cut off, they are well in supply and it's currently turn 10. It's getting ridiculous because he can perform 15 counterattacks, and maybe 12 will force retreats, even SS units. Is there something else that gets taken into account when determining combat results besides the combat factors? I notice he may attack at below 1:1 odds, but will numerically outnumber me 3:1. Is this any factor?

[swkuh]

Lots of possibilities. Are you quoting CVs as seen before action starts (opponents' stats are usually misrepresented,) or, CVs referenced during the battle? These are very different. Depends upon too many factors for my little brain.

AI doesn't seem to pull anything like this, though. (I'm an AI guy only.)

[loki100]

one possible answer is air power and/or artillery. If he is stacking his armies with a lot of artillery he may be getting a lot of disrupted results, improving the actual battle odds. There is an option to slow down the generation of the battle screen and this can be very informative as you see how the combat algorithm works through the stages.

Faced with a good target, I'd try a sub 1-1 attack (something like 3-4) in the hope that the pre combat adjustments evened this off (in other words a nice isolated panzer division). Otherwise you are risking giving away a lot of morale gains.

[Flaviusx]

Check your fatigue levels. If these are high, your notional CVs will be deceptive.

It's not hard to push back tired and overextended armor, never has been, these units are surprisingly fragile. Same is true for the Sovs, btw.

Infantry formations hold ground better.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Flavius is correct. It's very easy to counterattack with the Russians. Find a spearhead in clear terrain and attack with superior numbers. It gets even easier if you use your air force to bomb those units before the attack. This causes additional disruption. I think lots of Axis players underestimate fatigue. You should check your units. I'm pretty sure they have fatigue between 70 and 80.

And, of course, the Soviets only need to get a 1:1 result to win the battle.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Also, sometimes those attacks fail. I just had a massive defeat in front of Leningrad. 12 divisions against three Axis units with a displayed modified CV of 50. It was a bit of a crazy attack. There are risks.

[Joel Billings]

CV is just one element to look at when going into a combat. A healthy numerical advantage can often counteract what looks to be a CV disadvantage. Sometimes, CVs can look decent on paper based on tanks with high morale/experience, but can be brittle (not backed up by low CV guns/artillery or mid-CV infantry). Factors of fuel and ammo can come into play as well. In WitW, these factors are more reflected in the CV values you see on the map, so armor that's pushed itself far and fast will look much worse than they do in WitE (I've lost track how much of this is due to new formulas that penalize shortages and how much is due to formulas being better reflected in the CV number itself). Of course in WitW there are chances to resupply during the enemy turn so these numbers can prove to be deceptive if a unit manages to get resupplied. More uncertainty to throw into the mix. In WitW, we have an adjusted CV and numbers of elements in involved in the battle numbers that appear in the rollover when plotting a battle so you can get a better idea of how terrain/weather is going to impact things. For example, an armored unit on an urban hex has it's CV values of it's tanks reduced and this is built into the CV value. But if you attack that unit with heavy infantry units, the attacker actually gets a CV bonus (attacking into urban), but you won't see that in the counter on the map because it can't know what kind of hex you are attacking into. The new WitW rollover value reflects the attacking units adjustment because it knows you are considering attacking an urban hex (as you rollover it). What you see on the map is just the beginning of what's going on. That's why attacking is an art not a science in WitE. Some love it, some hate it, but it is what it is.

[morvael]

In general (even without the 1:1->2:1 rule) you will find Soviets to perform better with the same CV on CV ratio than Germans, due to their units containing more elements, which due to poor morale and experience are rated low in CV department, but usually perform better in actual combat. Just as Joel said, CV is only part of the combat system, not it's sole parameter like in board games. That's why it's important to build a 6th sense for good guesses as to your own and enemy units real capabilities in combat (play, play, play...).

[Toidi]

I have the same problem with displayed cv and battle results and the only advice I heard is 'play play play'

I played quite a bit and still do have problems with 'very surprising' battle results now and than.

Ok, some battle results are stunning at times.

Ok, they are sometimes total bs.

Anyway, good luck.

For me it is one of the major flaws of WitE, but apparently this one is tough to fix. It still got noticeably better in the last beta as quite few bugs were removed. Thanks Morvael.