Solitare versus an AI

[Numdydar]

I see that a number of people still find it hard to buy a game (especially at this price point) that does not have an AI. I too thought the same way. For those that care to look, you can find my name attached to all sorts of rants in the When thread that clearly show how I felt about this development. So I totally understand this viewpoint.

The 'Hell no, we won't buy' group because there is no AI may be (I do stress may) be those that never had to play these types of games in physical form, i.e. actual physical maps and counters, solitare if they wanted to play them at all. So for this group, not having an AI is a big deal.

The 'AI? We don't need no stinking AI.' group did play these kinds of games by ourselves. Either because no one was around that was willing to play or it was hard to get togeather often enough to play. From my personal experience, the first applied more than the later [:(]. So this group is more accepting of not having an AI because we have the experience of, while not as fun as playing against another person, it was still enjoyable in its own right.

Unfortunately, the second group cannot do much to convience the first group, that if they like the subject matter, the game will still be 'fun' even without an AI. The various AARs that are being posted shows how someone can play the game solitare and still have fun. However, that is still not enough.

So we have to accept that for some time there are going to be seperate groups on the forum, those that will not support the game because there is not AI and those that do not care as much. As long as we reconize that we hopefully can all remain friends [:)]

Personally I think those that have to wait for an AI will be losing out on a great experience. It took me quite a while to come around to accepting not having an AI at release too. But then I realized that the AI in games had really spoiled me [X(]. After all, there is no better opponent than yourself. If you don't like a result, reroll. Want the Russians to have their defensive line at the Urals, no problem. So playing on your own allows YOU to try all sorts of wild and crazy ideas that even against an AI you may or not be able to do. Or you can just do dumb things because you forgot what side you really were playing [:D]

So not having an AI is not the worst thing that could happen. Even though I too thought so once. Just saying before you write the game off because there is no AI, you might want to rethink it a little bit [:)]. If you still decide you have to have an AI, that is fine. Hopefully the WiF community over the next year or so, through play of the game and suggestions to Steve, we can make the best AI ever made for the game. I do know it will not be for lack of effort [:)]

[Mynok]

Spent countless hours playing board games solitaire, from Squad Leader to WiF.

[ACMW]

I have been reading these lists for about 6 or 7 years and am posting at the rate of about 1 post per annum. About half my posts have been re the AI. I am truly a one trick pony.

From my perspective I care not whether there is AI. The assistance that the electronic version will give to the management of this wonderful brute of a game is worth its weight - and worth the wait.

And as for the price? Within reason I will pay whatever it costs. Outwith reason I probably still will pay.

[chemkid]

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[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Solitaire WiF can be great. I have about 10 years of solitaire experience.....


Unfortunately, at least for me though, I'm kind of sick of playing myself. That being said, I don't really want to play the AI either; I have deep seated doubts as to whether or not any AI will be able to play at the sort of level that I'd find challenging. (I'm sorry, I'm tooting my own horn here, but there it is.)


I'm getting this game to play other people. To me actually, the first release not having true multiplayer, and forcing you into 1v1 matches, is more distressing than not having an AI.

[Numdydar]

Just think of NetPlay as you having some friends come to your home to play a game [:)] Plus you do not even have to clean up and supply munches lol. A real win-win if you ask me [:D]

[DSWargamer]

As much as I have to admit, a choice is really just a choice.

If they get around to making an AI for WiF, I suppose it might lead to a few sales. I just hope when they get their precious AI they remember they demanded it, it was delivered, and when it is as unchallenging as I say it will be, they are at least capable of accepting I was right, and they not spend a long span of time demanding patches and fixes and improvements as if that is going to actually make any difference

The fact that bard games still sell, is about all the evidence really needed actually, to prove that board games are likely still a very viable way to play good wargames. To me, a game that can NOT be played solo me vs me is a no sale. Sure, put in an AI for those that can't play solo vs themselves if you can, but, make the AI an option that can be cut out of the process.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Just think of NetPlay as you having some friends come to your home to play a game [:)] Plus you do not even have to clean up and supply munches lol. A real win-win if you ask me [:D]

My buddy and I used to drive 60 miles every weekend to play face-to-face and drive home in the middle of the night.

Expensive death-defying antics will be relegated to my desk and the chance of falling off my chair, not asleep at the wheel.

[Neilster]

I think there will be a significant increase in sales when the AI is available. People who buy computer games expect an AI.

Cheers, Neilster

[Alejo1968]

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Spent countless hours playing board games solitaire, from Squad Leader to WiF.

+1

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer
If they get around to making an AI for WiF, I suppose it might lead to a few sales. I just hope when they get their precious AI they remember they demanded it, it was delivered, and when it is as unchallenging as I say it will be, they are at least capable of accepting I was right, and they not spend a long span of time demanding patches and fixes and improvements as if that is going to actually make any difference

Uh-huh. Just as long as you and others also remember to at least be capable of accepting you were wrong and to eat crow when players start commenting about how competitive and challenging the computer opponent turns out to be. [;)]

For the many casual players who just so happen to NOT be WiF boardgame veterans with a couple decades of playing experience under their belts, an unrelenting AI that knows all the rules and plays a decent game without making mistakes might just prove itself a worthy opponent and lead to quite a few sales. Until then, my not-so-worthy solitaire opponent (ie, me) will not know all the rules and will make as many mistakes along the way as I do.

[vonRocko]

One of the main reasons for computer wargames (for me) was being able to play without needing another person. If I want to play myself, I could use the actual boardgame. Outside of saving space, I see no reason to buy this.

[DSWargamer]

Just because a gamer IS as lousy as a lousy AI, does not make the AI better, it just means the player will get trashed by just about any other human

It's a sad truth, that there is currently no such thing as a decent AI, merely games that mask the fact under a sea of number crunching that the human is not as capable of crunching as a machine.

Then again, my father could run a string of 8 digit sums past his eyes at the speed of a freight train (as that was what he was watching, and he could tell you any of those 8 string numbers such that is you asked him to state the 23 out of say 50, he could do it casually.

My brother to my annoyance, can do ordinary math ie add subtract multiply and divide in his head as fast as you can punch numbers into a calculator for common calculations.

The reason I can enjoy Civilization V is not because the AI is smart, but because until discovered, I have no idea what precisely the AI will be doing in its bland and ordinary fashion. So maybe it is zigging when I guessed zagging, maybe it is all military, when I figured it was going non military. But in a fully disclosed map nothing hidden, the game would suck, no challenge, the AI simply can't mimic thought.

AIs are merely calculating massive sums of equations at mechanically fast speeds, and then picking choices without any real thought. AIs can't do deceit, they can't lie. There is no such thing as a fair fight vs the AI, it is never capable of being my equal. All I can do is bias the game in favour of the AI, give it better costs, better combat ratings. I consider a fair fight me vs the AI in a game of Civilization as me vs 18 AI opponents. Essentially I am 18 times better than any one AI.

The only reason AI exists in games is money. If 70% of the audience says no sale without an AI, you give them an AI
There's no point in making a great game, and being unable to sell it all because there was no AI.

I am just one of the no sales if the game is unable to be played without the AI.
I prefer another human opponent for the randomness of it not being all my ideas.
Some of the best gaming I have had over the years has been as a result of a newcomer doing something totally new that no one had thought of previously, and it working
Games that must be played vs the AI though, I consider them a waste of time let alone cash. I wouldn't want the titles for free.

[DSWargamer]

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

One of the main reasons for computer wargames (for me) was being able to play without needing another person. If I want to play myself, I could use the actual boardgame. Outside of saving space, I see no reason to buy this.

For me it is entirely about space. That and the manuals being unified should permit a comprehensive design. I have the board game. Only reason it isn't in use is basically the same reason I don't own Europa series. Fire in the East is 6x8 and only till 43. I mean, how many people really have a 6x8 table? And just the thought of what that does to your back.

I'm not able to play my A3R enough as well. I also wonder if I was nuts buying the HASL modules (ok more money than brains, guilty as charged ).

To me, a computer is a tool, not a companion.

[pzgndr]

This senseless banter is yet another datapoint in my observations that some (not all) anti-AI zealots go out of their way to criticize any and all AI as well as bully other players who prefer playing computer wargames versus a computer opponent because that's exactly what the power of the computer offers the wargaming community. However, rarely if ever does anyone ever try to insist upon games that must be played versus an AI (there aren't that many but some such as Hannibal: Rome and Carthage in the Second Punic War, Armageddon Empires, and others have proven to be pretty darn good games) and provide vocal resistance to any developers providing pbem, TCP/IP, hotseat or other means for players to have real live human opponents, deceitful liars and cheats and quitters notwithstanding.

Yo customers, attention! If you want to buy this or any other game then buy it; if you don't then don't. However you choose to play with your game (and it is JUST a game), please enjoy it. But please do not presume to think that however you choose to enjoy your game, your hobby, your entertainment or whatever you do, that it must be "your way or the highway" and nobody else has a right to enjoy these games differently. Carry on. [:'(]

[ETF]

ORIGINAL: Neilster

I think there will be a significant increase in sales when the AI is available. People who buy computer games expect an AI.

Cheers, Neilster

You are so correct.....I never understand. Playing CPU wargames since the early 80's and I have NEVER seen an AI worth much....at best possibly a intermediate player (Very high end games maybe CIV5) most of the time it is only good for tutorials and rudamentary moves. AI's take up HUGE programming time. Rather have a better overall MP prodcut. Who enjoys painting the map "red" with AI bashing......good for our ego's maybe but that is it.

Once you play with some great people on line they can be your virtual friends for decades.

[gw15]

Civilization IV is the best AI I have ever played. Play random continents with 7 AI opponents with a high setting and it will be very hard. It moves smart and knows how to handle navy and air.
I love the mouse wheel zoom and how smooth it is. Not many games seem to duplicate it.

[Ur_Vile_WEdge]

Chess. Has Rybka ever lost a classical time controls game to a human?

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: DSWargamer

Sure, put in an AI for those that can't play solo vs themselves if you can, but, make the AI an option that can be cut out of the process.

This.

I hope Steve puts this in his 'things to do' for version 2.0 so that playing against an AI is optional so that you can still play 'me vs me' games [:)]

[Schnaufer]

I would prefer any AI versus knowing what I am going to do each turn because I know all the moves I just made as the opposition.
Have played board games solo, sure it's better than not playing, but not much.
Just my opinion, although I have been riding the hype train on this title for years already so a little jaded.
Have a good one all [:)]