Rear area security and Soviet airborne

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Here is air doctrine.

Looking good. How many air groups are on night mission?

[Bozo_the_Clown]

The biggest problem I see is that sov AB units just use normal rifle squads! This is the worst problem. It means that they can replenish their establishment in almost no time.

Very true. It's a simplification. Makes life a lot easier for the programmer I suppose.

In my game with rmonical I also noticed for the first time that some airborne brigades that surrendered are coming back as empty shells. This has happened three times so far. I'm not sure if that is suppose to happen.

[heliodorus04]

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

These are all valid points. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Keep in mind that for every action there is a counter-action. Why is it that the Soviets have complete command of the sky? Where are the Axis fighters? Why are the airbases not scouted to figure out where the transports are coming from? Why are these airbases not bombed into oblivion? You don't want your RR Repair unit/HQ/Airbase to displace? Why don't you stack them with a combat unit. You need to protect a hex that is vital for supply? Then put a unit in that hex.

In my opinion an exploit is something you can't defend against. I'm not convinced that the mighty Luftwaffe is unable to fend off a couple dozen of transport planes. Shoot them down or bomb them on the ground and the party is over.

I don't think we need a house rule for that.

Because the game's air model is awful.
There is no point bombing airfields for the German (however, try bombing German airfields as the Soviet in 1941, and see what you can do - you can whittle Germany down to 100 fighters by the start of the mud turns, EASILY.

So your argument holds no realistic chance to stop the exploitation of the mechanics that you are practicing.

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

Here is air doctrine.

Looking good. How many air groups are on night mission?

Interception for the German should be set between 200 and 300%
Ground attack and escort should be lower. I go with 40/30 respectively, because the Soviet air force isn't going do much damage to your bombers - again, because the air model is bad. It should be noted as well, that other German players have found that you really don't need ground attack support in 1941 anuyway, since the Soviets all have 1 or 2 CV. I turn interdiction OFF entirely, because it's completely unworth the fatigue it will cause your aircraft. Just let Ivan move however he sees fit.

[swkuh]

Thanks, Bozo, the Glantz reference. Reading w/interest. Appreciate that no one has all the answers, though.

Good discussion, but I'm afraid that even WitE 2.0 will not address useful Axis rear area security. Like ideas of Axis sub-regiment unit breakdowns, but think it isn't suggested for WitE futures.

[SigUp]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Interception for the German should be set between 200 and 300%

Wouldn't that actually mean fewer flights? Of course every single flight would be stronger, but if the Soviet manages a few other missions to draw off those fighters, you end up with none in the air, once the Soviet flies in his transports.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

So your argument holds no realistic chance to stop the exploitation of the mechanics that you are practicing.

Heliodorus, please take a look at the combat results I just got from a test game which I fired up to prove you wrong. These are similar drops I'm doing in the game with rmonical. The first brigade is depleted and can't even displace anything. The second drop was not depleted. The losses, however, are so heavy that any SHC player would think twice doing stuff like this. He can still do it but not more then a couple of times.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

And here is an attempt to bomb an airfield with transports surrounded by airfields with fighters into oblivion. Just a quick test with some random bombing runs. The first screenshot is after the bombings and the second one before. BTW, also a large number of Soviet fighters were destroyed. I'm sure that someone who is willing to test this properly will get much better results.

[rmonical]

This is to reiterate item 3 in the original post. The AI does not allocate construction unts to hexes cut by an air drop. This was during mud. In this case the airborne unit displaced the FBD which you can see re-entering on the other rail line. It was easier to do that than try to get back to the line it was working.

[rmonical]

I'm sure that someone who is willing to test this properly will get much better results.

After a couple of hundred recon missions, I found some transports to attack. The results were underwhelming.

[rmonical]

I also noticed for the first time that some airborne brigades that surrendered are coming back as empty shells.

Well why not. I guess that makes it safe to be even more prolific with the AB. Though they should stop coming back as of being destroyed in November and later. Do they show up in reinforcements? You get 15 more depleted brigades in December as reinforcements. I guess the returning AB makes this tactically dubious drop OK. Maybe you will explain the rationale.

I assume the drops are at night so the Luftwaffe does not intercept.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

Heliodorus, please take a look at the combat results I just got from a test game which I fired up to prove you wrong. These are similar drops I'm doing in the game with rmonical. The first brigade is depleted and can't even displace anything. The second drop was not depleted. The losses, however, are so heavy that any SHC player would think twice doing stuff like this. He can still do it but not more then a couple of times.

well the evidence in the rest of the thread contradicts this claim that this is some sort of one-off wild card option.

One important issue is that Soviet para formations draw on rifle squads. That would be fine if you've converted them and opted to use them as leg infantry but gives a completely unrealistic view of the Soviet ability to raise these units.

Remember that unlike the British and Americans in 1941-44, the Soviets didn't really have the luxury of spending ages training up specialist units on the grounds that the bulk of their armed forces were not in active combat. Both those nations could easily divert manpower and time to a long term project.

Equally up Cherkassy-Kanev, what the Soviets dropped was parts of their brigades, the whole thing ideally should be folded into the partisan mechanics. Set up an airdrop and if it works, gain an instant partisan - if you get lucky you cut a critical rail line.

The good thing about Bozo's approach (& that of MKTours) is that by throwing out common sense and self-limits to actions, it really helps bring all sorts of wierd things to the light of day.

I'd suggest the best short term fix is that if you want to keep your paras as brigades (ie air droppable), then they need a specialist squad to replace. If the opening ones take any losses in the opening phases (most likely), they will be pretty useless till late in the year. The mob you get in December 41 (?) will take time to become useable.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Well why not. I guess that makes it safe to be even more prolific with the AB. Though they should stop coming back as of being destroyed in November and later. Do they show up in reinforcements?

Didn't look at the replacement schedule. Three AB came back as empty shells with 0-12. And not in the rear but a couple of hexes from the front. Kind of like they were routed. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

I assume the drops are at night so the Luftwaffe does not intercept.

Yes, all air drops are at night as I have mentioned many times before. Are your fighters not set to night mission?

[Bozo_the_Clown]

The good thing about Bozo's approach (& that of MKTours) is that by throwing out common sense and self-limits to actions, it really helps bring all sorts of wierd things to the light of day.

Not sure why you think it's not common sense to do this. This game is all about supply. If you interrupt the Axis advance even once and maybe prevent an HQ buildup the whole house of cards falls apart. That some of the mechanics of the airborne system are broken is pretty obvious. Also, the 8 hex rule makes it necessary to coordinate everything with your front line troops. If you just run away from the Axis you can't drop air brigades in any meaningful way. If you stay and counter-attack you all of a sudden get a lot of options.

At this point of the game I'm simply just trying to figure out how far I can go with this. I perfectly understand that this is totally annoying to most players in this forum. The Soviets get 80+ Li-2 and 60+ TB-3G at the beginning of the game and an additional 9 Li-2 every turn. It's amazing what you can do with these few planes/units if the Axis doesn't intercept your planes.

Another "great" use for airborne brigades is to scout all the airfields and find the ones with the Ju-52s on them. Then, after one of those supply runs with 300 Ju-52s just drop an airborne brigade next to the airfields to displace them. Next turn all damaged Ju-52s are permanently destroyed. Correct me if I'm wrong, rmonical, but I believe I destroyed 80 Ju-52 in one turn this way.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

After a couple of hundred recon missions, I found some transports to attack. The results were underwhelming.

You did just one attack? Try 20 or 30. And before the air field attack use your air groups for ground attacks in the vicinity of the airfield. This way you destroy the fighters first. Also, I think you need to lower your setting for Percent Required to Fly to 5.

Since the bombers can't be used for resupply I would be much more aggressive with them. However, they always have to have a fighter escort. Otherwise they are sitting ducks.

[Leber]

The Soviets also used airborne dropped reconnaissance teams extensively throughout the war to observe and report German operational/strategic defenses. Glantz covers this in Soviet Military Intelligence in War. In the chapter on reconnaissance prior to the Vistula-Oder Operation there's even mention of more than one OMSBON team being successfully dropped as far west as Berlin, providing valuable information until they linked up with Soviet forces in April.

[mannerheim4]

ORIGINAL: rmonical

Diverting two Panzer Corps south is equally absurd.

Not absurd at all. The Ukraine is far more important than Moscow.

True. Three panzer groups south would have been even better. Forget Moscow until 1942...

[rmonical]

T24, and here we have two more of the "air drops that never fail" opening a pocket.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

This one was a beauty. I dropped a brigade next to your Panzer regiment to make sure that it wouldn't get pushed east. Then I ran my usual air attacks and afterwards I attacked the regiment with two rifle divisions. Regiments with high fatigue and low supplies are sitting ducks. Once this was completed I had to drop one more brigade. Unfortunately, they were out of range. So I had to move the airbase and the brigade south to the limit. Once you move your transport planes you can't use them for night drops. So I switched them to daytime drop and voila. And again almost no losses. [&:]

[rmonical]

Oh yeah. The OKH AI is still allergic to repairing hexes cut by airborne.