Breaking the extended Lvov pocket and aftermath

[Bozo_the_Clown]

This thread is not about the realism of the extended Lvov pocket. I'm doing something I wanted to do for a long time. Breaking the extended Lvov pocket and then defending forward with almost everything. I know it's foolish but I want to see what happens.

My opponent is Valderech aka Beekeeper. He claims to have so so experience (ha, ha, ha). First turn comes back. All red!

There are two possibilities to break the Lvov pocket. With the 2nd Mech Corps in the South and with the 16th Army further north. I did both of them just to see what happens.

The attack with 2nd Mech Corps was first.

12 air attacks and then a hasty attack against one regiment of 11th Panzer.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

The second attack was not even necessary and was probably totally foolish as I committed 16th Army instead of railing it to the land bridge. The point was to encircle the three lead Panzer divisions.

Two attacks were necessary. One from within the opened pocket and the other one from outside with tank divisions from 16th Army.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

This is the second attack on the SS brigade.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

There were three more attacks in the South on turn one. Two failed against Panzer regiments. And another attack against Das Reich was successful.

Turn two will probably bring an even bigger pocket as two of those cut-off divisions were supplied by air.

This is not an AAR so I will not continue this thread. I'll probably just post an update regarding my demise. [:D]

I'm expecting an mktours like defeat.

[Toidi]

Opening Lvov pocket is important because you can transfer out all the su from the divisions, saving heaps of arm and having them at significantly higher morale.

Cutting out the tanks leads to much increased tank losses if the opponent decide to move them (almost no effect if no moves this turn are made); they also get no extra fuel. Still on turn 2 they will get 30-40 mp if cut. They may get more if hq is in range, but often after cutting tanks out, hq is not in range.

The opp will be greatly slowed mostly because of the opening of Rovno pocket. It is hard to advance infantry there without removing the units inside and operating with tanks too far from infantry is a no no. Your opponent will also have to gather quite a few divided divisions, that always result in loss of mp.

All in all, if I were playing axis, you would get slightly larger pockets at turn 2 (few more units, mostly those you attacked with, very carefully sealed) but not much advance (I may have moved units forward and back just to flip hexes - if I do HQ buildup fuel is free). I would build up supplies in the currently cut off divisions though and will try to make big advance on turn 3.

Well done for the aggressive defending, I would be a very unhappy Axis player seeing the turn. Though I would probably make a slightly better opening in the south myself - I tend to break divisions only when I really have to - and e.g. in the very south when I have to keep regiments in the open, your attack would not open the pocket. I learned that the hard way - after the first time you get your pocket open because of aggressive Soviet opponent you tend to plan your moves very carefully. I still have issues with the Minsk part in my opening as I send a lot of force south and quite some to the north... but I can usually live with an opened Minsk pocket - opened Lvov is much worse...

T.

[Gabriel B.]

The small Dubno pocket had dommed this opening , the axis lines had become porous.

[lastkozak]

Very good Bozo, that is what a Kozak would do! retreat if you must, but for the cost of a few workers, one can mess up the Germans, or at least slow a few Panzers for a turn or two.

I also found, when a German player forgets the Hungarian Border, one can mess him up, and force a couple German divisions into Hungary to stop me; since the Hungarians are too small to do anything. If the Germans went north with the extra panzer armee, these tactics slow down AGS, such that one has more than enough time to build up fortifications on grandpa Dnipro!

[2ndACR]

I wish I was still messing with this, I would welcome you to enter Hungary and release all their troops. They make good diggers and are better than the Romanians and Italians for limited combat duty.

[lastkozak]

Well, I do not know about what patch causes or does not cause Hungary from Completely mobilizing. I have never seen more than a few Hungarians fighting, and never saw the frozen army of Hungary, unfreeze, when a soviet unit enters Hungary, or messes with rail lines there. Or do they have to take a major city first? The tactic is merely one to threaten the Germans, and if you can cross the mountains, they have to commit at least a corps to drive you out.

By all means, please indicate where in the rules that is listed, or send some before and after shots of the entire Hungarian army mobilizing, and which version was used.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I wish I was still messing with this, I would welcome you to enter Hungary and release all their troops. They make good diggers and are better than the Romanians and Italians for limited combat duty.

maybe in 1942 after they upgrade ...[:-]

in 1941 all of their infantry units are brigades (the cost of entering enemy hexes is high)
+the armor division arives just as the mud hits [8|]


the contruction value is around 22-25 which determines how fast they dig, is
half of a rumanian division.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

The rule is:

If the Soviets capture a Hungarian or Rumanian town either West of hex column 60 or south of hex row 110, then all of these Axis Allied units on the map are unfrozen.

But anything that slows the Germans down during the first couple of turns is a good idea.

[lastkozak]

I never go much further than the mountains, and threaten the rail lines on the other side, or create fear of a Soviet unit running around the countryside in the Germans' rear! (Spreading Marxist/Leninist doctrine among the oppressed peasants and working class! [:-] [:@] )

[2ndACR]

I think they have to capture a city/town, either way, I have had Russians do it to me before, they don't slow me down any. Once they are cut off, by turn 3 if no Lvov move, they are easy meat. I don't waste much energy hunting them down and killing them. Couple MTN units kill them just fine.

But have only seen a activation 1 time, and think it was a Russian attack on that Romanian town by the border. Been a couple years since I played the game, 1st Matrix game that ever left my hard drive. But might load her back up since they are finally doing something about the blizzard.

Ah yes, forgot they are all brigades until 1942, whoops, still all active so much quicker, I could find a use for them.

[lastkozak]

2ndACR

I stumbled across this while reading the manual.

10.3. Axis Allied Frozen Garrisons
Most Italian and Hungarian units that begin scenarios in Hungary or Yugoslavia or further west are permanently frozen garrison units. If the Soviets capture a Hungarian or Rumanian town either West of hex column 60 or south of hex row 110 that is linked to the Soviet supply network, then all of these Axis Allied units on the map are unfrozen.

v1.03 Beta 2 - January 21, 2011
The 110 in the last sentence of section 10.3 should be replaced with 120 (Axis Allied Frozen Garrisons).

Those hex coordinates, are in Rumania, and this mechanism does not seem to respond if one takes the mountain passes in Hungary, although these hexes are west of 60. It may be the the soviet units were not linked up to the supply network.

[caliJP]

Bozo, I just faced a similar situation, but even worse. My opponent managed to encircle pretty much my entire SW front, and even block my 16th Army from escaping, all on T1!! (see below) Obviously he must have studied T1 very closely. On T2 he went all the way to Kiev, and also had unfrozen the Romanians on T1, so they could block some of the SW front retreat in the south. On T2, I cut off all his panzers east of Zhitomir. Yet on T3 his Pz were in Kirovograd and almost in Odessa! On T5 he was almost in Kharkov! I conceded. We were playing V260 rules, so I could not retreat forever. The main problem I faced is that after such a T1 opening, I had almost no units left in the south to slow him down in any way. They were almost all pocketed on T1.

This was with 1.07.11beta. So it does not seem to me that the reduced fuel birds rule change makes that much difference. I played 3 games as German against humans with full flying birds and never attempted anything like this. My opponents all conceded on T10 or before, but still my initial pockets (specially in the south) were nowhere near that big, so they were able to fight on for many more turns.

I think the problem is that the soviet positions are known perfectly to the german player at the start of the game, and those positions are such that the german, after studying this very carefully can pull off a huge pocket before the russian player even has a chance to move. I think with the game as is, the only way to prevent this is what Wheat is doing, i.e. limit how far the germans can go on T1.
tm.asp?m=3446175
But a better solution would be a game mod to allow the soviets to modify their unit placement to a small extent, maybe have a bag of 5 or 10 units to be placed anywhere before the start. That would enable the blocking of some channels that are wide open right now.
Also it seems silly that the germans can unfreeze their own romanian friends on T1. Only the russians should be unfrozen by german trespassing, and vice-versa.

[lastkozak]

Wow!!! I heard that this new patch allowed the Germans a better chance, and undermined morale for the soviets, but me thinks that this was not the intention. Was such a move possible in previous versions?

Did your opponent conduct air supply in the middle of his move? Is that even possible? What number of casualties did he inflict 1st turn? That is did he just run deep, and not attack anything?

I do not know which units seem to come out of Hungary and go running around the Lviv Oblast? In your pic here, I cannot see any indication they came from Poland.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

It's a shocker of an opening. From looking at the screenshot it is hard to say if you could have done something about this. Would you be willing to send me the file so that I can "study" it? I'll send you my email as a PM.

[caliJP]

Lastkozak, yeah I still haven't figured out how he could flip some hexes south of Lvov like that, coming from the Hungary side. Obviously a great move to block some of my retreat. He refueled the furthest east panzers at the end of the turn, but pretty limited with only Ju52s.
Stats for T1:
German ~11K casualties
Soviet ~294K casualties
Battles: 17 held, 100 retreats, 8 shattered, 19 surrenders, 45 routed, 2 scouted

[lastkozak]

I do not know who you are playing, but it may be somebody who is an expert, and wanted to teach you the hard way!

Good luck with this. Maybe ask the guy to post what he did and how up, so we can all learn from his insight and wisdom!!

Is his name Rommel? or Model?

[caliJP]

He is definitely very good. Maybe a cross between Rommel and Patton
He did very well in the Center/North too (I won't divulge his strategy here, but I would consider it legit) but the soviet unit placement in the Center/North coupled with early reinforcement allowed me, despite some early disappointment, to at least mount some sort of a defense where I had a fighting chance to slow him down.
The problem in the south is that I was cooked before I moved one unit