Trade Frustration

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geosch
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Trade Frustration

Post by geosch »

I am returning to DW for the first time in 6 months to try out Shadows, but still have an old familiar problem - Resource shortages despite an abundance of the resource in the galaxy.

For example, Silicon.

I can almost understand my internal problem, I have probably expanded too fast, too fast for my constructors and freight ship building to keep up. I have plenty of Silicon in stock, but little in transit. The pirates have been eliminated. My freight build queue is backed up waiting on ... Silicon!

However, the galactic trade has plenty of silicon in stock and in-transit. Why can't I get some of this silicon??? There are very few pirates left, I have plenty of money to pay and I have several (5) free trade agreements.

Any insights/advice would be appreciated. thanks... g

Canute0
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by Canute0 »

About the Trade, no player realy understand how cargo distribution and trade works at DW, but we all know we would do it better if we could do it manualy ! :-)
But maybe the Galactic Silicon sources are far away from your empire, so no AI empire want send a freighter.

Since you know you need Silicon (and some other rare resources) very soon, you should order some construction ship manualy to build a mining base there soon you discover a source.

geosch
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by geosch »

Canute,

Thanks for the moral support, it is good to know that I am not alone in my ignorance of how the trade system works.

Addressing your points;
- My empire is stalled just short of victory because we can't build anything. I have colonies throughout the galaxy. Therefore I don't believe distance should play a role.
- I have plenty of silicon in stock, and many mining sites. I just can't get the stuff to where it is needed.

One would imagine that my desperation for Silicon would drive the price up and therefore have several other empires and/or pirates offering the stuff to me at inflated prices. There should be exchanges where it could be bought/sold.

Anyhow, what is the purpose of having this convoluted trade/freighter system if it doesn't work? Personally, I would love to have the option to drop the freighters/logistics and handle resources like Civ 5 does. g
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Darkspire
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by Darkspire »

ORIGINAL: geosch

I am returning to DW for the first time in 6 months to try out Shadows, but still have an old familiar problem - Resource shortages despite an abundance of the resource in the galaxy.

For example, Silicon.

I can almost understand my internal problem, I have probably expanded too fast, too fast for my constructors and freight ship building to keep up. I have plenty of Silicon in stock, but little in transit. The pirates have been eliminated. My freight build queue is backed up waiting on ... Silicon!

However, the galactic trade has plenty of silicon in stock and in-transit. Why can't I get some of this silicon??? There are very few pirates left, I have plenty of money to pay and I have several (5) free trade agreements.

Any insights/advice would be appreciated. thanks... g

About the Trade, no player realy understand how cargo distribution and trade works at DW, but we all know we would do it better if we could do it manualy ! :-)

The way to get all resources spread across your colonies is to build one spaceport per system. Once you have colonized a planet in a system select the planet (largest / one with the most population if there is more than one) right click and choose to build a small spaceport, assign a small 4x destroyer defense fleet to that planet and build at all the resource points in that system that have more than 2 sources, start with the fuel ones first, does mean controlling the constructors manually, I have 10-15 constructors working for an 80+ colony empire for example, once the small spaceport has been built and the system has been mined retro fit it to a large spaceport. Make sure you colonize in a logical manner, do not stray to far from your influence circle so that the range for the freighters is not to much.
Other things that may help is to maually design the private ships, best engines (10 on each class and 5 thrusters) and 5, 10 and 15 cargo holds on the freighters and when the choice becomes available, leave the private ships to Quantum(?)(purple) reactors (caslon) and your state ships to the blue top end one (hydrogen) also I have 12, 24 and 36 docking points in the three sizes of spaceport to allow a good through port. Only other thing is that the mine designs are kept an eye on, if you have those on auto design and build they can really cause problems, have one on manual retrofit ant the other on auto, change once that type is up to date, personally I would have the mine designs on manual and do them yourself, much easier and much easier to control the resource flow that is needed to upgrade them.
As you choose the resource points in a system to build at you will learn over time which order to build them in, fuel, steel, gold etc. Keep an eye on your unfulfilled amounts and colonize at a speed that gives good growth but not so much that your resources are spread thin, more planets and spaceports mean more private ships, yet again only experience will let you gauge the speed needed.

Darkspire
geosch
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by geosch »

Darkspire,

Many thanks for your speedy and detailed comments. I had forgotten about building spaceports right away (I had it set on auto) and belatedly tried to build a bunch - only to find out that this has compounded my problem by creating even MORE demand for resources! I have over 20 constructors in the field, but they are all waiting on resources also.

I believe your advice is the proper way to build up and expand your empire in Distant Worlds, but personally I find it more micro-managing than I like. This is why we have computers, now and in the future (I hope!). I want to 4X the game (explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate), not exhaust myself with logistics.

Anyhow, I knew MMing was a problem with DW, but my real question is - why have this façade of a trading function? I have lots of $$$$ and critical demand for silicon, why can't I get any???
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Darkspire
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by Darkspire »

Anyhow, I knew MMing was a problem with DW, but my real question is - why have this façade of a trading function? I have lots of $$$$ and critical demand for silicon, why can't I get any???

That was the point of the post, that is why you have the shortage. You need to control all the resources as you expand, spaceports work like trade hubs, when a constructor gets a build order it will go to the nearest port and load from there, if the resources in a system are mined then the port has good stick thus leveling out the demand, if they are short of certain resources in a system a freighter will replenish from the next spaceport along, hence one spaceport in each system, and thus the resources are leveled. It honestly is not much of a micro, when I started playing a good few years ago I had everything on auto and just found it was better if I did certain things as I could control the flow of things better. This also comes around to colonies, the amount of freighters is dependent on the amount of colonies, more colonies mean more freighters which leads to more stock being moved, its a juggling act [:D]

Darkspire
geosch
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by geosch »

Darkspire,

No argument at all with what you say, I fully accept your POV. It is a case of "horses for courses" though, and the DW course has too much MM for this horse! And we haven't even talked about fleet/troop management! Gaw! I have two fleets stranded w/o fuel. [:@]

And to be clear, what I am wondering about is why does DW have these statistics for galactic supply/in-transit/unfilled resources when there does not appear to be a way to tap into the galactic market? g
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Darkspire
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by Darkspire »

And to be clear, what I am wondering about is why does DW have these statistics for galactic supply/in-transit/unfilled resources when there does not appear to be a way to tap into the galactic market?

Here we go into unknown territory [:)]

From what I have noticed the galaxy side of things is more to do with the independent traders, anything else is your own, the amounts for the galaxy side, I think, govern the selling price of your own stocks. You do 'tap into it' but yet again this is only from my own observations, if a colony is short of a resource the AI looks for the nearest point for your own private merchant fleet to get it from, if there is none then an order is put in on the galaxy side and you get it from there, I think the galaxy side has its own list of products to supply and that would include other empires as well and that would account for the reason sometimes it seems like forever before you get the resource needed.
Gaw! I have two fleets stranded w/o fuel.

As I said, queue fuel as the first thing in a system. If I was able to find a video capture device that I could use with sound I would make a simple tutorial on this, the micro is not to much, and shoot me for being a geek, fun [:D]

Darkspire
Canute0
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by Canute0 »

So long you develop your homesystem with enough and the right resources you allways can build ships there without delays. You can build there defence fleets for your outer colonies.

Move your construction ship first to your homesystem, then order them to build forward gas mining station. Since they start from your homesystem they shouldn't got problems to finish the base.
Or build Resupply ships.

At this way you can ignore the resource shortages on your colonies.


geosch
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by geosch »

Hmmmm... Here's a real surprise;

I checked the empire again, and the skies are just crawling with freighters - going all over the place. However, they are all EMPTY! (well, I checked about 20 freighters, there are at least 150) That's right, there is nothing in the cargo!!! This explains why my stocks are high, my "in-transit" low and "unfulfilled demand" is very high.

Now, what is going on??? g
Bingeling
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by Bingeling »

Are they empty on refuel missions? Transport missions? On their way to be retired?

There seems to be a feature of the game that freighters use more time picking up cargo, than getting it to its destination. I guess it is due to them not being really close.

If you have fuel issues, I guess they may be limping around looking for fuel.

As for the silicon problem, have you tried to build more mines on sources?

Also, with Shadows you can find freighters working for you selected item by their travel vectors being red. Make sure to enable the civilian ones.

See the image, by following the source of the red arrow, it is possible to check that supplies are on their way. Those fetching resources work for their destination, the spaceport if there is one. Transport work for colonies, not spaceports. In the image, a stuck construction ship is selected, and indeed, one freighter is on its way, and there was no need to panic.

Image

I found it quite fun to switch between spaceports and see who were the ones having freighters working for them. The capital spaceport is a winner... If you switch between colonies, it is quite easy to see where migrants are headed.
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Moat_Man
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by Moat_Man »

Don't forget about assigning pirate missions to bring resources to a location. That can help get something finished that is waiting on a resource or two. Also don't forget to cancel the mission when you have what you need.
geosch
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by geosch »

Thanks everybody for your comments/suggestions. And Bingling for your insight into trade routes, that was new to me.

I admit that my particular current situation is caused by over expansion, that I understand. And I have been allowing pirate smuggling missions always, have plenty of fuel, built many starbases, killed off the pirates, have freighters in the build queue and have assigned constructors to build the necessary mines. The problem though is a high demand for resources (to do all the building) and high stocks that aren't being delivered.

What my concern/comment/frustration is: The game creates the impression that there is some sort of galactic trade going on, yet I can't get a share of it. I am using silicon as my example, but the comments apply to many other materials - there is plenty in galactic stocks and plenty in transit, the galaxy is drowning in silicon - but somehow my empire cannot get any, despite the fact that I have open trade agreements with several other empires and have plenty of cash. If the game is going to have this trade/freighter function - do it right.

On top of that, inside my empire, I have high stocks and extremely high demand. Yet little material in transit but plenty of empty freighters floating around. [&:][&:] It does not make sense.

Bingeling
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by Bingeling »

The freighter algorithm is not perfect, far from it, but it has improved quite a bit over time.

I think that it fails to respond to "major issues", which from a player's standpoint is builds being stuck. They appear a bit too fond of shifting moderate amount of luxuries. Nothing is quite as annoying when there is a major shortage, as discovering a large freighter going miles away to pick up 19 of some random luxury.

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Icemania
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by Icemania »

ORIGINAL: geosch
I believe your advice is the proper way to build up and expand your empire in Distant Worlds, but personally I find it more micro-managing than I like. This is why we have computers, now and in the future (I hope!). I want to 4X the game (explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate), not exhaust myself with logistics.
I would add that any discussion on manual control should consider the rewards to the player ... and the rewards to the player here are massive. I do not mean just avoiding stalled construction. It enables my empires to expand, explore, exploit and exterminate far more quickly than on Auto.

Manual control in DW is worth trying as it maybe less tedious than you expect. As an example, manual control of constructors to ensure they are supplied from planets such as your homeworld with extensive resource supply and to ensure build order optimisation. They take a little time to build structures so you won't be bombarded with end of mission notifications. Once I have about 30 bases and the mix of resources needed for fast growth, most of those Constructors move to debris field ship repair, which takes even longer.

Call it logistics, call it micromanagement ... instead consider it an investment in enabling 4X megalomania. Optimising this has kept me interested for a lot longer than most other Strategy games.

That said, we all have a limit. A fleet of 70-100 explorers using "move to" (i.e. in order to quickly find goodies only around the galaxy rather than just explore everything) has defeated me ... even though the benefits are massive. Try that for a while and you may look at manual control of constructors and spaceports differently!

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Icemania
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by Icemania »

ORIGINAL: geosch
And we haven't even talked about fleet/troop management! Gaw! I have two fleets stranded w/o fuel. [:@]
Fleet management is the best part of all!

Stranded without fuel ... we can help you avoid this forever more. It's very possible to have fleets on constant extermination duty without ever having a fuel problem ... if you get the logistics right! [;)]

Agree with everything said previously and would add:
1. Once you have enough Gas Mining Stations within your territory, start building them spaced around your territory, so fleets do not necessarily have to return to home to refuel (that said early game defences are weak so build in systems that are defensible or where you already have a presence)
2. Optimise your ship designs to have extra fuel cells and keep in mind fast research of the first few ship size technologies is key
3. Optimise your gas mining station designs to have an extra extractor or two and enough docking bays for your typical fleet sizes
4. Don't refuel multiple fleets at the same place (particularly when they have extra fuel cells) spread the refuelling duty around your sources ... most important, nothing will help you without this!
sbach2o
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by sbach2o »

ORIGINAL: Icemania

[...] As an example, manual control of constructors to ensure they are supplied from planets such as your homeworld with extensive resource supply and to ensure build order optimisation. [...]

This got my attention. I am reading that like you have found a way to make a constructor pick its construction materials from a specific spaceport? If that is true, I am stumped. In my experience, all constructors will always pick up their materials from the spaceport closest to the construction site. Here's one instance of the game trying to optimize for trip distance where it is absolutely useless.

Wait a minute, right now I am thinking of something: you could fake-order your constructor to build a structure close to your well-stocked capital and, once it has picked up the resources, stop it and issue the real order. Well, here you go, you always learn something new... Of course, you have to catch that constructor before it starts building at the fake-site or you'll have wasted part of your investment on some useless or unimportant structure.

Okay, in earnest: this is a crass example of the kind of dirty trickery you can apply to bend this game to your will. Of course micromanagement will get you out of almost any hole in DW. I don't know whether this is a blessing or a curse, though. The game must be balanced against players who do not micromanage much, or all would be pressed into doing this. The alternative of improving most automatisms to the point that a micromanager can't do much better can be safely dismissed. I do not think it is feasible with the scale of the game and just one programmer working on it.

In my experience the fun of playing this game is inversely proportional to the time I spend in dirty little details like the scenario described above. At the same time I just cannot let all those little (and big! talk about taxation) opportunities of doing something better pass by. The result is just a game without challenge that is only somewhat fun. I envy people like AntiScamp...
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Icemania
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by Icemania »

ORIGINAL: sbach2o
I am reading that like you have found a way to make a constructor pick its construction materials from a specific spaceport? If that is true, I am stumped. In my experience, all constructors will always pick up their materials from the spaceport closest to the construction site. Here's one instance of the game trying to optimize for trip distance where it is absolutely useless.
There is no need for fake-orders and dirty tricks. For simplicity let's say it's early game. I move Constructors to my homeworld. Then I command them to build a structure and they take resources from the homeworld. When finished building I move them back to my homeworld.
ORIGINAL: sbach2o
The game must be balanced against players who do not micromanage much, or all would be pressed into doing this. The alternative of improving most automatisms to the point that a micromanager can't do much better can be safely dismissed. I do not think it is feasible with the scale of the game and just one programmer working on it.

In my experience the fun of playing this game is inversely proportional to the time I spend in dirty little details like the scenario described above. At the same time I just cannot let all those little (and big! talk about taxation) opportunities of doing something better pass by. The result is just a game without challenge that is only somewhat fun. I envy people like AntiScamp...
I play completely manually as automatic is unbearably frustrating to watch. That said, I also agree we can't expect miracles from a small team on such a complex game ... which is why I choose not to be critical. Looking forward note the call in another thread to go big and bold on Distant Worlds 2!

I understand people have different micro limits. My real point is that often there are ways to simplify while retaining the benefits. I do not mind manually ordering the constructors around as I've described. I don't mind manual ship design as I keep the number of designs limited (e.g. only one military ship which is always of the largest size) and have save files for key research milestones in the early game. I don't mind manually ordering fleets and ships around because I like blowing things up etc.

The micro of a large fleet of explorers using "Move To" rather than "Explore" can dwarf everything else ... yet it enables getting Way of the Ancients, Super Weapons, Super Luxuries (etc) many years earlier. I just can't do this anymore!
[/quote]
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Shark7
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: Canute

About the Trade, no player realy understand how cargo distribution and trade works at DW, but we all know we would do it better if we could do it manualy ! :-)
But maybe the Galactic Silicon sources are far away from your empire, so no AI empire want send a freighter.

Since you know you need Silicon (and some other rare resources) very soon, you should order some construction ship manualy to build a mining base there soon you discover a source.


Actually I'm not sure I could do it better manually. Unlike WiTP:AE, there really are a lot of resources that are needed for colony growth. And getting resource X from point A to points B-W is better handled by the AI in my judgment.

I think the one thing that would help more is if the cargo ships didn't transport minute amounts of resource. 25 here and 110 there is very inefficient. Would rather haul 3k of something to a planet that has a shortage, and that leaves it a bit of a backstock so it doesn't run out again anytime soon.

Now when it comes to mines, I do handle that manually, and having 12+ construction ships is advisable.
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elanaagain
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RE: Trade Frustration

Post by elanaagain »

re: preceding post ^
I think the one thing that would help more is if the cargo ships didn't transport minute amounts of resource. 25 here and 110 there is very inefficient. Would rather haul 3k of something to a planet that has a shortage, and that leaves it a bit of a backstock so it doesn't run out again anytime soon.


Thinking out loud: If transports only carry 'minute' amounts, then it makes no sense to build freighters with large cargo capacities. Perhaps designing cargo haulers all with tiny cargo holds and fast loading, turning, and speed might help. Expensive, but perhaps not as expensive as many [more cargo like] haulers running with almost no cargo? Anyone tried this?
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