"From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Command Ops: Battles From The Bulge takes the highly acclaimed Airborne Assault engine back to the West Front for the crucial engagements during the Ardennes Offensive. Test your command skills in the fiery crucible of Airborne Assault’s “pausable continuous time” uber-realistic game engine. It's up to you to develop the strategy, issue the orders, set the pace, and try to win the laurels of victory in the cold, shadowy Ardennes.
Command Ops: Highway to the Reich brings us to the setting of one of the most epic and controversial battles of World War II: Operation Market-Garden, covering every major engagement along Hell’s Highway, from the surprise capture of Joe’s Bridge by the Irish Guards a week before the offensive to the final battles on “The Island” south of Arnhem.

Moderators: Panther Paul, Arjuna

Post Reply
User avatar
Sensei.Tokugawa
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:06 pm
Location: Wieluñ, Poland

"From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by Sensei.Tokugawa »

How serious is the supply issue plaguing the Allied forces in this one as it seems? I have just scanned the forums in general to get to know more, but all the conclusions I can draw is that airborne units do not get resupplied properly - perhaps it is the way to simulate the airlift of supplies which was not that efficient especially when the DZs for Red Devils were overrun by Division von Tettau et al. Is also that the general supply levels for the Allied ground forces including the XXX Corps are too low? In the first case that would be acceptable - in the other - not really.

I am getting ready for an on-line operation in a HTH mode so I definitely would not like to waste my time and effort for something not working properly once I have the base game and all the addons to pick something that does not turn into a nuisance.
"-What if one doesn't make it?
-Then we know he was no good for SpetsNaz. ..."
V. Suvorov, "Spetsnaz;the Story behind the Soviet SAS"

...No escape from Passchendaele .../ God Dethroned, "Passiondale"

jimcarravall
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:11 am

RE: "From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by jimcarravall »

ORIGINAL: burroughs

How serious is the supply issue plaguing the Allied forces in this one as it seems? I have just scanned the forums in general to get to know more, but all the conclusions I can draw is that airborne units do not get resupplied properly - perhaps it is the way to simulate the airlift of supplies which was not that efficient especially when the DZs for Red Devils were overrun by Division von Tettau et al. Is also that the general supply levels for the Allied ground forces including the XXX Corps are too low? In the first case that would be acceptable - in the other - not really.

I am getting ready for an on-line operation in a HTH mode so I definitely would not like to waste my time and effort for something not working properly once I have the base game and all the addons to pick something that does not turn into a nuisance.

Much depends on what is defined as "properly."

If it is reflecting history, there were serious historic supply issues plaguing the Allied forces when the planners conceived the Market and Garden operations.

It related back to having too few ports near the zone of operations, a destroyed rail system between functioning ports and what amounts to the land Supply Entry Points in the game forcing the Allies to use trucks to support the theater's strategic supply needs during a fast advance on a broad front throughout Western Europe, and a limited number of air transports and gliders to move troops and supplies to the air drop zones.

Apparently reflecting this, the supply arrival schedule for the basic game shows replenishment is at 75 percent of stock requirements on the first day of the game, goes to 80 percent on the second through sixth days (as air supported SEPs are supplemented with land deliveries from XXX Corps), and fluctuates between 75 and 78 percent during the remainder of the game when virtually all supply arrives by land.

For the operation itself, the concept of advancing a significant force along one major route created operational supply flow choke points (blown bridges, bridges primed for blowing, and limited crossing points along major waterways) where the enemy could interdict land delivery of supplies from the Supply Entry Points to bases.

Included with the in theater supply flow issues, stocks held by units and bases at start or arrival vary below 100 percent of maximum.

The ability for forces in contact with the enemy to receive supplies vary, but can be mitigated by becoming aware of normal combat supply issues as reflected in the section "Get Your Units Back in Supply" in the game manual and adjusting tactics to be more conscious of supply issues to avoid arriving at the point where you have to "get your units back in supply."

Just as with the historical battle, it makes for a difficult game for the allies against the German AI, but the scenario designer(s) tested the scenario for "play ability" and "balance" as both the Allied and the German commander prior to releasing it.

If you're not necessarily infatuated with recreating history (which means the Allies "should" lose in the end), there are options that can be mutually agreed to by players to increase or reduce supply flow to either side, add or subtract reinforcements from either side, increase, decrease or eliminate the delay between orders being issued the unit action to those orders for both sides, and improving or worsening the weather for both sides (though weather was largely not a determining factor for success or failure in the original operation).

If it's your first time with the game, have fun.

The Command Ops engine is excellent at reflecting realistic operational options and concerns for a human commander within the bounds of the computer platform the engine is designed to run on.

It's an excellent means to become familiar with the military sciences as experienced by a combat commander.
Take care,

jim
User avatar
Sensei.Tokugawa
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:06 pm
Location: Wieluñ, Poland

RE: "From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by Sensei.Tokugawa »

Thank You very much for a prompt and thorough response. As an avid student of operation "Market-Garden" I am well aware of all the issues that were involved into planning and execution of the operational assumptions and objectives. As an ardent AA and CO wargamer with many an hour of HTH sessions I was kind of surprised with the idea that supply issues are somewhat improper in the campaign scenario and need tweaking. I have always had an impression that the AA assault engine which evolved into CO one was an ultimate attempt at properly simulating such basic concepts for operational level as maneuver, supply and movement etc. that most of the issues hardly ever result for the game deficiencies, but they are either the outcome of the CO's mistakes or come from the strategic level and that is apparently the situation You accurately described above regarding "Market - Garden". I'd say I am still inclined to go only with the seasonal weather and favour both sides reinforcements options, but remain all the rest on a historic values level.
"-What if one doesn't make it?
-Then we know he was no good for SpetsNaz. ..."
V. Suvorov, "Spetsnaz;the Story behind the Soviet SAS"

...No escape from Passchendaele .../ God Dethroned, "Passiondale"

Phoenix100
Posts: 2922
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:26 pm

RE: "From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Marcin, you're no novice, so you know the ropes all too well. Check out the other threads on this issue and what Daz has had to say on it. I wouldn't myself wish to play a big HTTR scenario H2H at the moment (with or without 'pause' [;)]), and I think you would have a bad time of it, if you play the Allies. So I would echo Daz's suggestion that you steer clear.

Jim says; The ability for forces in contact with the enemy to receive supplies vary, but can be mitigated by becoming aware of normal combat supply issues as reflected in the section "Get Your Units Back in Supply" in the game manual and adjusting tactics to be more conscious of supply issues to avoid arriving at the point where you have to "get your units back in supply." But, to be honest, you'll only find yourself able to follow this advice by not having the front line bridgehead troops fight at all. That should keep them in supply...

The historical troops couldn't get enough supply because not enough was able to be dropped on them (mainly because pre-arranged drop zones were overrun etc) - what was dropped and collected was distributed fairly well. But you will have plenty of supply dropped, will maintain control of your drop zones, establish clear routes to your flot and your troops and will still not get supply because having the enemy right in front of them, engaging them, even in the middle of an urban zone, even with suppression laid on, will be sufficient to lead to repeat AI 100% interdiction calculations and you will steadily bleed jeeps and men from the bases as a consequence, until you're left with a base that might be full of supply, with a clear route to the flot, but no jeeps to get to the flot. And right behind that base will be a parent base one step up the ladder, full of supplies also, with an abundance of unused jeeps, and the AI will not use it to supply your men because the old base is still alive.
User avatar
Sensei.Tokugawa
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:06 pm
Location: Wieluñ, Poland

RE: "From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by Sensei.Tokugawa »

WTF then? I think lack of the Deleen airfield option with the 52nd Lowlands Division ( Airportable )available is already enough of an insult and that is an insult added to injury - or the other way round.

And yes Peter - pause kept to damned minimum and virtually non-existent, but for making tea and the stuff.
"-What if one doesn't make it?
-Then we know he was no good for SpetsNaz. ..."
V. Suvorov, "Spetsnaz;the Story behind the Soviet SAS"

...No escape from Passchendaele .../ God Dethroned, "Passiondale"

Phoenix100
Posts: 2922
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:26 pm

RE: "From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Deelen - how do you mean? You want a scenario with the lowland division dropped on Deelen? I could put that together easily enough for you. As could you, of course. Do it - and play that. The more troops you have the less the supply issue matters, because one of the factors used - I think - to calculate interdiction, is weight of opposing firepower. If you have more then that seems to cancel things out a bit, so you will get less less interdiction sometimes. But only sometimes. Daz very recently posted an example - over in the other thread, I think - of a lone Axis unit being attacked outnumbered and some of the attacking units managing to somehow interdict supply to their attackers.

Anyway, good luck with your game, whichever scenario you choose. You could post an AAR of it - I'm sure everyone would love to see that.
User avatar
decaro
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:05 pm
Location: Stratford, Connecticut
Contact:

RE: "From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: burroughs

How serious is the supply issue plaguing the Allied forces in this one as it seems? I have just scanned the forums in general to get to know more, but all the conclusions I can draw is that airborne units do not get resupplied properly - perhaps it is the way to simulate the airlift of supplies which was not that efficient especially when the DZs for Red Devils were overrun by Division von Tettau et al. Is also that the general supply levels for the Allied ground forces including the XXX Corps are too low? ...

But can't the player adjust both the supply levels and reinforcement arrivals during the scenario set-up for both sides?
Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.[center]Image[/center]
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
Phoenix100
Posts: 2922
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:26 pm

RE: "From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by Phoenix100 »

There are options to affect supplies and reinforcement arrivals, Joe D, yes. You can also, of course, use the scenmaker and give the airborne forces 200% supply every single day if you wish, but it still won't get through to your frontline troops if you suffer the problems mentioned in the thread on this. They're separate issues. But you only really notice them in the very long and large scenarios (and especially in the airborne scenarios where the supply issue - without any problems that might arise from the engine and how it calculates interdiction - is already a pressing issue to manage). You would only have to play through the original From the Meuse to the Rhine, slowly and carefully, to realise that things happen that make you think 'hang on a minute....' But it's a long scenario, and handling that many units is not everyone's cup of tea, so I guess there aren't that many who have actually ran it right through (as allies), on slowest settings, taking note of why exactly you lose... Because, like your historical counterparts, you will probably lose (the Arnhem bridgehead) through supply issues, but not in the way it happened historically. In real life the drop zones couldn't be held and the bulk of the paras were pocketed into Oosterbeek. They did try sporadic supply drops into Oosterbeek, without much success, so supply didn't get through to the flot in Oosterbeek because it just wasn't dropped/collected in quantity. If they had bullets, they were distributed, by men running around under fire, normally, in circs of great courage and danger. With 2 para, holed up on the nth bank of the bridge, supply was genuinely interdicted on the route between the DZs (before they were overrun) or the main force (increasingly in Oosterbeek) and 2 paras position further east (west Arnhem was a choke point which the Axis made sure to control). In the game you will have all the benefit of historical hindsight and you may be able to hold your drop zones and establish clear routes to either Oosterbeek or the bridge, supply will be dropped in abundant enough quantities and collected by your bases - but your supply will still not reach your flot, because of the issues mentioned in the threads.
User avatar
decaro
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:05 pm
Location: Stratford, Connecticut
Contact:

RE: "From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: phoenix

There are options to affect supplies and reinforcement arrivals, Joe D, yes. You can also, of course, use the scenmaker and give the airborne forces 200% supply every single day if you wish, but it still won't get through to your frontline troops if you suffer the problems mentioned in the thread on this. They're separate issues. But you only really notice them in the very long and large scenarios (and especially in the airborne scenarios where the supply issue - without any problems that might arise from the engine and how it calculates interdiction - is already a pressing issue to manage ...

OK, but I thought Arjuna had already dealt with the supply interdiction issue in a previous patch, and I assume it fixed all scenarios regardless of their respective lengths?

But I could be wrong and I understand how a small problem or series of problems can magnify over time.

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.[center]Image[/center]
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
Phoenix100
Posts: 2922
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:26 pm

RE: "From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Yes. He did tweak the conditions in an attempt to make it slightly more difficult in some circumstances for interdiction to occur. I think those conditions and that tweak is, in effect, what we're feeding back on now.
User avatar
decaro
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:05 pm
Location: Stratford, Connecticut
Contact:

RE: "From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Yes. He did tweak the conditions in an attempt to make it slightly more difficult in some circumstances for interdiction to occur. I think those conditions and that tweak is, in effect, what we're feeding back on now.

Ok, so though supply interdiction was addressed, it wasn't fixed, esp. in the longer scenarios?
Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.[center]Image[/center]
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
Phoenix100
Posts: 2922
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:26 pm

RE: "From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by Phoenix100 »

Well, JoeD, that would be my opinion, and Daz's, and a couple of others who have been playing through the longer scenarios, I guess - as you can see from the threads. You might think it's all fine if you play it through. I would guess, from his posts, that Jim Carravallah thinks everything is fine on the supply front, though I'm not sure from his posts that he has played the scenarios through. He has a wealth of experience in real life supply situations for modern armies, of course (and, I assume, of commanders blaming this that and the other on the supply department!). Dave mentioned, some while back, before his second hand op, that he had an idea for a quick fix, which I assume he will put into effect when he gets the chance, which involved adding an (extra, I think) die roll at the point where the AI has calculated the interdiction possibility (which it only seems to do at the 0600 and 1800 supply event stage, for all forces drawing down supply, and perhaps also for individual units at the point they request emergency supply [I've noticed that the supply line indicator box can turn red just when a unit asks for emergency supply, I think, followed in due course by a 100% interdiction message])which would make it the case that there was a reduced chance of getting a 100% interdiction message even though all the conditions for that were fulfilled (it was only meant to be a quick fix, he said), so I guess that might mean that Dave has looked at the issue and agrees to some extent. Daz has sent him many saves of harsh examples of supply routes following bad avoidance pathing, of repeat supply attempts in hopeless conditions (player cannot at present stop this) and of interdiction by units facing a greater weight of suppressive firepower, sometimes almost surrounded (yet still managing to interdict those surrounding them) etc. All these issues can occur in all scenarios, including short, small ones, it's just that it won't then hamper you as much because it takes a certain amount of (longer) time before all the jeeps get shot up, and there are likely to be a greater frequency of emergency supply requests in acute combat situations such as being dropped behind enemy lines and facing a numerically superior force pretty constantly, as happens in the big HTTR scenarios. In these scenarios you sometimes (if your troops are all herded into a pocket, for example) will have no possibility of easing the interdiction, even though you might have a base full of supplies within the pocket, because there is no room to pull back etc - yet, historically, in such urban environments troops did manage to distribute the supplies they had available, mainly using men with packs to worm a way through to the front lines. That doesn't happen at all in the game at present. For me, I find it equally irritating when it happens in the smaller scenarios that there's an 'irrational' interdiction (I particularly think that it should be much harder for it to happen when all units are fighting in a built-up urban environment rich in cover and concealment)but it's not make or break in the smaller ones.
User avatar
decaro
Posts: 4004
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:05 pm
Location: Stratford, Connecticut
Contact:

RE: "From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: phoenix

...Daz has sent him many saves of harsh examples of supply routes following bad avoidance pathing, of repeat supply attempts in hopeless conditions (player cannot at present stop this) and of interdiction by units facing a greater weight of firepower etc. All these issues can occur in all scenarios, including short, small ones ...

I have seen hopeless attempts at repeated supply even in shorter scenarios that can deplete the manpower of supply units as they continue to attempt the impossible.

I imagine some resupply attempts would be ambushed, but in the real world, most would simply realize the route is cut-off and just return w/o taking casualties
Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.[center]Image[/center]
[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
Phoenix100
Posts: 2922
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:26 pm

RE: "From the Meuse to the Rhine" plagued by supply issues?

Post by Phoenix100 »

I have seen hopeless attempts at repeated supply even in shorter scenarios that can deplete the manpower of supply units as they continue to attempt the impossible.

I imagine some resupply attempts would be ambushed, but in the real world, most would simply realize the route is cut-off and just return w/o taking casualties



Wholeheartedly agree.

I'm not sure how much of it is fixable until version 2 of the engine (if then, and whenever that arrives) but I do think that the quick fix Dave has suggested would make a significant difference. Because then - depending on the die roll - at least some of the time supply, or some supply, would get through (and without loss of jeeps) even though prior to the fix there would have simply been a 100% interdict message. It would be good enough to make these long scenarios playable, I think. I was very impressed - as ever - that Dave could just dream up a quick fix like that, so simple, yet I think it really would mitigate the issue.
Post Reply

Return to “Command Ops Series”