Pricing Suggestion

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Nemo84
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Nemo84 »

ORIGINAL: hondo1375

I'm no Matrix shill, but Iain is making a good point here. I think we can all agree that Matrix is trying to make as much money as possible "for the devs" over the lifetime of this game. If they believed they could make more by selling it for $40 at release, why wouldn't they? What's stopping them?

Matrix is a business, not a charity. Their primary goal is making enough money for themselves. Making enough money for the devs is a secondary concern, as is evidenced in the few games where Matrix does not have unique distribution rights. Matrix primary goal therefore is most likely to keep their near-monopoly on the genre intact as long as possible. A genre that suddenly starts growing faster than they can keep up might actually not be in their benefit.

ORIGINAL: hondo1375

Nothing except the fact that they don't believe they can. Based on tons of data built up over 14 or so years that let's them understand the different market segments for wargames, the demand, the price elasticity and so forth.

I know from years of professional experience that data can easily, either deliberately or accidentally, be completely misinterpreted, especially is said misinterpretation seems to prove a pet theory.
ORIGINAL: hondo1375
Also, their day job, for 14 years, as distributors, is to understand just these kinds of things. Who that has posted here can claim to know the business better? You've got to imagine walking into a business board meeting presenting to a CEO - you need lots of data to support a contention, not a couple of anecdotes, some (possibly dis)analogies, and a few numbers published by Steam.

When people can see every other distributor in the entire industry is doing the exact opposite and obviously benefiting from it, it doesn't take being a distributor yourself to see which way the wind is blowing.
ORIGINAL: hondo1375

In the end you have to believe either Matrix doesn't know their job or are greedy. They certainly may be mistaken about how they have assessed the market for this game, but Iain has even accepted that, and is willing to listen to any "real" data to the contrary. (The other argument, that is not being made here, is that Matrix and the devs should make less profit from this game by offering it at a lower price so the people that find it too expense can afford to buy it. Since no one is making that argument, I won't pursue it here, although I expect there aren't too many hardcore wargaming millionaires around.)

Iain just dismisses every single piece of data that does not prove his preconceptions. That's not "being willing to listen", that's just trying to smother the discussion.

Nobody wants less profits for everyone just to save themselves $30. People are arguing here in favor of a business strategy that would massively increase profits for the developers and see the wargaming genre actually flourish again.


ORIGINAL: hondo1375
Don't get me wrong, I certainly have sympathy with the posters here that are priced out of this game, and I myself am waiting a couple of weeks to see how the game is before laying down that much cash, I just think the arguments that claim to know Matrix's business better than Matrix need a lot more data to be convincing that is being offered here.

Matrix doesn't present any actual data to support their point of view either, and yet somehow you consider them convincing.
Xornox
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Xornox »

ORIGINAL: hondo1375
Also, their day job, for 14 years, as distributors, is to understand just these kinds of things. Who that has posted here can claim to know the business better? You've got to imagine walking into a business board meeting presenting to a CEO - you need lots of data to support a contention, not a couple of anecdotes, some (possibly dis)analogies, and a few numbers published by Steam.

How they could have data if they have not tried all possible strategies? Have they tried to create easily approachable cheap war games (for example, Panzer Corps could be such) and then middle price more complex games? Have they seen how this approach would work in the long term when cheap, easy games would pull more customers here and they would then to start buy their more expensive products? Only tested strategies they have are high or very high price approaches.

Panzer Corps could have been selling huge amounts in Steam if it would have been marketed as a new version of Panzer General. How many new customers they would have here then? Another huge selling candidate is Distant Worlds... Steam has several quite well selling space strategy games but they all are worse than Distant Worlds.

Of course, Steam is competitor of Matrix games... They are trying to hide war games to their own world and sell them with high price - same time the world changes around them and eventually only few people will pay 100$ per game when Steam sells same or higher quality for even 5-10 dollars.
Aurelian
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Aurelian »

Not only do they not have to provide you with data that you'll accept, but you are not entitled to it.

No one here is entitled to it.

And does anyone have any hard proof that says Panzer Corps could be selling huge amounts on Steam?

Or that they have not already looked at that?


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Terminus
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Terminus »

+10000!

The Slitherine Group is a COMPANY! You're a consumer. You don't get to demand anything from them, and they don't get to demand your money. That's how our beloved capitalist system works.

Stop being so stupidly passive aggressive.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
Aurelian
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

+10000!

The Slitherine Group is a COMPANY! You're a consumer. You don't get to demand anything from them, and they don't get to demand your money.

Don't ya love how people think they know better than a company that has been in business for years? And has expanded?

Let's simplify. "I want your product, but I don't want to pay what you ask. So your business model is a failure."
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Nemo84
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Nemo84 »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
ORIGINAL: Terminus

+10000!

The Slitherine Group is a COMPANY! You're a consumer. You don't get to demand anything from them, and they don't get to demand your money.

Don't ya love how people think they know better than a company that has been in business for years? And has expanded?

Let's simplify. "I want your product, but I don't want to pay what you ask. So your business model is a failure."

Quite frankly, your attitude is downright short-sighted and insulting. If you don't have anything useful to add to the discussion, outside of ad-hominems, the wise thing to do would be to stay out of it.

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Not only do they not have to provide you with data that you'll accept, but you are not entitled to it.

No one here is entitled to it.

And does anyone have any hard proof that says Panzer Corps could be selling huge amounts on Steam?

Or that they have not already looked at that?

Then they aren't entitled to dismissing pricing discussions based on their fancy data. Besides, where is your hard proof that Panzer Corps will be unable to sell huge amounts on Steam?
ComDev
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by ComDev »

ORIGINAL: delenda

I've yet to make a fully informed decision on the UI, more hours of Command should get me there but I'm not yet sure as to why people are saying the UI is approachable. Items are often in obscure places, (IMHO) it doesn't look that great and basic windows form elements do not necessarily mean approachable. Has the MS UX Guide been consulted/used? People that I've shown youtube vids/screenies too haven't been impressed with the UI and one of the main vocalists is a professional UX guy.

Thanks for your feedback Delenda, I've added a new 'feature request' in our database and copy-pasted your comments [8D]

If you have more comments/suggestions, even screenshots etc showing how things could be improved, then please post up! [:)][:)]
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smudge56
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by smudge56 »

I love the games its just a shame that in this global financial crisis, where people are trying to save money where they can. its priced this high.
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Aurelian
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
ORIGINAL: Aurelian
ORIGINAL: Terminus

+10000!

The Slitherine Group is a COMPANY! You're a consumer. You don't get to demand anything from them, and they don't get to demand your money.

Don't ya love how people think they know better than a company that has been in business for years? And has expanded?

Let's simplify. "I want your product, but I don't want to pay what you ask. So your business model is a failure."

Quite frankly, your attitude is downright short-sighted and insulting. If you don't have anything useful to add to the discussion, outside of ad-hominems, the wise thing to do would be to stay out of it.

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Not only do they not have to provide you with data that you'll accept, but you are not entitled to it.

No one here is entitled to it.

And does anyone have any hard proof that says Panzer Corps could be selling huge amounts on Steam?

Or that they have not already looked at that?

Then they aren't entitled to dismissing pricing discussions based on their fancy data. Besides, where is your hard proof that Panzer Corps will be unable to sell huge amounts on Steam?

Don't really care if you find my attitude insulting. You have no right to the information. And I don't have to prove anything. Your claim, your's to prove.

Now, what *is* insulting is what you think a private entity is or is not entitled to. So long as you continue to think you are, it is *you* who has nothing to add. Especially as you bring nothing new.
Watched a documentary on beavers. Best dam documentary I've ever seen.
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Terminus
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Terminus »

And the Slitherine Group has nothing to prove to you. They don't have to present any sort of data to you. You don't like it, take your ball and go home.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
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hondo1375
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by hondo1375 »

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
Matrix is a business, not a charity. Their primary goal is making enough money for themselves. Making enough money for the devs is a secondary concern

Agreed, I was just being polite and quoting Iain, although all supplier-distributor relationships are not adversarial or zero-sum games. I'm sure Matrix wants the good devs to survive and even thrive because it will be more revenue for them over the long term.

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
I know from years of professional experience that data can easily, either deliberately or accidentally, be completely misinterpreted, especially is said misinterpretation seems to prove a pet theory.

That is of course always a possibility, but it applies to the data provided by both sides of this argument.

ORIGINAL: Nemo84When people can see every other distributor in the entire industry is doing the exact opposite and obviously benefiting from it

I think if you could somehow prove that every other distributor was doing that and benefiting, that no other distributor was following Martix's model, and that these other distributors were addressing the same market segments as Matrix, then I would be disappointed if Matrix didn't take that on board.

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
Iain just dismisses every single piece of data that does not prove his preconceptions. That's not "being willing to listen", that's just trying to smother the discussion.

I think it depends on what you count as data and proof. I'm expecting they have tons of data, and a few data point presented here that may or may not be relevant to their market isn't going to sway them, or anybody in their position I expect.
ORIGINAL: Nemo84
Nobody wants less profits for everyone just to save themselves $30.

Actually, I do. Matrix are free to set their price as they see fit, and I'm free to purchase at whatever price I see fit. We don't owe each other anything or have any obligation for each other's well-being. That's market capitalism. If Matrix want to forgo $30 from their bottom line so I can keep $30 more in my pocket, then I whole-heartedly encourage them to do so. Of course, I wouldn't want them to go out of business, because nobody is bringing games like this to the market, but I'm sure they are looking out for their own interests (have we come full circle yet?).
ORIGINAL: Nemo84
Matrix doesn't present any actual data to support their point of view either, and yet somehow you consider them convincing.

I'm convinced that they are a professional wargaming distribution outfit who have survived three major economic downturns and who are capable of looking out for their own economic interests.

First wargame: Jedko's 1st edition "The Russian Campaign". First computer wargame: don't remember the name, but it was on punch cards.
Tomn
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Tomn »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
And does anyone have any hard proof that says Panzer Corps could be selling huge amounts on Steam?

Or that they have not already looked at that?

It's not exactly hard proof, but there IS the fact that Panzer General, the game Panzer Corps is based on, WAS a mainstream success back in its day. It hardly seems far-fetched to suggest that, properly marketed and sold on a major platform at a decent price now, it could be again. And as for claims that they have already looked at this, well, the trouble is they haven't REALLY tested such theories out, other than occasional half-hearted stabs - and as demonstrated in this thread, certain folks in Matrix Games seem a little quicker than one would think quite right in dismissing any arguments in favor of doing things differently.
ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil
On the comparisons with other games I'm surprised by the choice of games as they are not indicative of Command at all.

With all due respect, I believe you're missing the point. Complexity doesn't in and of itself make a genre completely and uniquely different - what it does is make it NICHE. A sufficiently complex game means that there are only a few people out of a much larger total who would be interested in such a game, which from a functional perspective makes it little different from a game about truck driving (which might not be as complex, but whose subject matter is hardly mainstream) or a game about going into space (which IS complex enough that it isn't everyone's cup of tea).

This is key. What we are discussing is not the very specific differences between games, but rather the fact that all of them can only sell to a small percentage of the total marketplace. Only a small percentage are willing to play a game about driving trucks. Only a small percentage are willing to muck around with rocket science for entertainment. Only a small percentage are willing to struggle with the difficulties of modern naval warfare. In this, there is little difference between Command, Euro Truck Simulator, and Kerbal Space Program. Yet ETS and KSP have become major successes. Why? Because by using a reasonable pricing point and major distribution channels, they have been able to get in touch with and appeal to their small percentages much more efficiently than was ever possible in the past. Is it so strange then to imagine that Command would do so much less well?
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hondo1375
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by hondo1375 »

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
One could also argue that Matrix has a very vested commercial interest in keeping wargames a tiny but expensive niche, as that makes you the only publisher for every new title. Should the wargaming genre suddenly pick up, new publishers would rise, self-publishing would rise and you guys would lose your near-monopoly.

I respect your passion Nemo84, and your concern for the hobby, but I'm not sure I follow your argument here. So long as there are no significant barriers to entering the market, keeping prices high is about the worst way of maintaining a monopoly position. It makes the market attractive for others to enter, and provides a price umbrella for them. Especially, if as you say, there is a big untapped wargaming market to be addressed at lower price points. Someone could just come in and set up shop, undercut Matrix by 30%, get lots of new customers, and still bring in lots of revenue. The best way for Matrix to keep out competition would in fact be to discount, as that means it would be hard for someone inexperienced in the business, without a reputation with developers, to set a price point in the market that could make everyone some money.
First wargame: Jedko's 1st edition "The Russian Campaign". First computer wargame: don't remember the name, but it was on punch cards.
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by IainMcNeil »

The data that guides us is confidential and extremely valuable and we can't share it which brings us to a wall. It happens every time there is a big release and if it didn't work we wouldn't still be here ;) It is not even related to the price - Panzer Corps was $40 and the price received the same kind of reaction. Battle Academy iOS released for $20 and received the same kind of reaction. Legion iOS was $10 and received the same reaction. Whatever price we release at there will be people who think its too expensive. Those people assume if they wont pay the price the vast majority of other people are like them. This is clearly not true or the business would not be growing so fast.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't accept the points but don't want to spend any more time discussing it so I'll have to withdraw from this thread. 1 release a week doesn't happen by itself!
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Terminus
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Terminus »

So one might say,

They See Slitherine Rollin'...
They Hatin'...

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thewood1
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by thewood1 »

How street of you...
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Terminus
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Terminus »

Slitherine doesn't even share its sales numbers with its development teams. When we made WitP: AE, all we got was the money agreed upon. Fine by me.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Tomn »

ORIGINAL: Nemo84When people can see every other distributor in the entire industry is doing the exact opposite and obviously benefiting from it

I think if you could somehow prove that every other distributor was doing that and benefiting, that no other distributor was following Martix's model, and that these other distributors were addressing the same market segments as Matrix, then I would be disappointed if Matrix didn't take that on board.

It seems a bit of a tall order to say "If you can find our identical clone who is doing the exact opposite of what we are doing, THEN we'll consider changing," don't you think? Part of the problem here is that Matrix has a near-monopoly on wargames at present, and that the only data specifically about wargames has to do with what Matrix has done, not what it hasn't tried. It would be a little like Standard Oil saying "Well, if you can find another oil company that sells oil at a lower price than we can, we will consider lowering our prices. Until then, we shall continue doing what we have always done and has always worked for us."

Yet it doesn't seem necessary to find an exact, identical clone. There are, as I have pointed out earlier, a great number of similar markets and genres in terms of their nicheness and how they appeal only to a small minority. Though there are certainly some unique challenges involved with wargames, the essence of the thing remains the same - games which appeal to a small percentage of people can do much better than they could in the past by reducing their prices and hitting major distributors.
ORIGINAL: Nemo84
Iain just dismisses every single piece of data that does not prove his preconceptions. That's not "being willing to listen", that's just trying to smother the discussion.

I think it depends on what you count as data and proof. I'm expecting they have tons of data, and a few data point presented here that may or may not be relevant to their market isn't going to sway them, or anybody in their position I expect.

As mentioned just above, the problem here is that "tons of data" applies only to what they actually have done. You'll note earlier that JDM very politely asked for data on ARMA, DCS, ETS, KSP, rail sims. etc. because they lacked that data and would liked to have done an analysis. Yet all of the mentioned games are very much niche markets, just as wargaming is a niche. We can see then that they haven't really looked too far outside of their own niche - perhaps because they believe that wargaming is completely and perfectly unique to the point that they don't follow any of the rules any other game must follow, which seems a bit of a stretch. To use an analogy, then, this would be like a racer saying "I am walking very fast! I am going much faster than I did when I was crawling! I can't think of any way I can go faster!" while around him everyone is sprinting, who he ignores because they're not running down exactly the same lane he is and therefore he considers them irrelevant. Does it seem surprising, then, that others who have been looking at what others are doing should constantly bring up their data points, if it seems that Matrix really hasn't considered them?
ORIGINAL: Nemo84
Matrix doesn't present any actual data to support their point of view either, and yet somehow you consider them convincing.

I'm convinced that they are a professional wargaming distribution outfit who have survived three major economic downturns and who are capable of looking out for their own economic interests.

Certainly - I don't believe anyone is saying that they will absolutely go out of business any time soon, or that their business model cannot possibly function. What they are suggesting, rather, is that their business model is highly inefficient and stagnant. To use another analogy, we are suggesting that they are a medievally-managed agricultural estate during the peak of the Industrial Revolution. Yes, they could keep going on as ever they did if they really wanted, but they're missing out on quite a lot. They may grow, and this growth may astonish them, but it seems that such a growth would have less to do with their policies and more to do with the explosive growth of the market around them, of which they allow a small trickle to bleed into their wallets, which trickle still being incredibly good compared to how they did in the past. We suggest, then, that they open the spigot and see how it flows.
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Tomn »

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

The data that guides us is confidential and extremely valuable and we can't share it which brings us to a wall. It happens every time there is a big release and if it didn't work we wouldn't still be here ;) It is not even related to the price - Panzer Corps was $40 and the price received the same kind of reaction. Battle Academy iOS released for $20 and received the same kind of reaction. Legion iOS was $10 and received the same reaction. Whatever price we release at there will be people who think its too expensive. Those people assume if they wont pay the price the vast majority of other people are like them. This is clearly not true or the business would not be growing so fast.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't accept the points but don't want to spend any more time discussing it so I'll have to withdraw from this thread. 1 release a week doesn't happen by itself!

I'm sorry, but this seems inconsistent. You yourself claim that each game is different and is priced accordingly, and that your stable of games runs the gamut from incredibly complex and pricey to accessible for newcomers and relatively cheap. In short, you already admit that you place a differing value on each of your games. It hardly seems inconsistent, then, that people will consider a game cheaper than your most expensive game to be overpriced if it is priced higher than they believe the worth of the game to be. One does not sell Pac-Man for eighty dollars on release, and one does not sell Call of Duty for five dollars on release. To claim then that complaints about price will always exist when the argument is that there is a clear pattern of overpricing in all sectors seems disingenuous.

I say again, might I add, that there is no contradiction between the statements "Matrix Games is currently growing fast" and "Matrix Games could grow far faster if they priced lower." Please do not dismiss an argument proposing improvements, then, simply because you have yet to go bankrupt.

Hondo: As it happens, I certainly do think that a good bit of healthy competition is just the kick in the pants Matrix needs to come awake to the realities of the modern marketplace. As it stands, without competition, they are free to do almost whatever they want and still call it successful. Having a direct competitor would certainly help shake up some preconceptions. I for one am very much in favor.
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Maesphil74 »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Slitherine doesn't even share its sales numbers with its development teams. When we made WitP: AE, all we got was the money agreed upon. Fine by me.
Slitherine doesn't even share its sales numbers with its development teams. When we made WitP: AE, all we got was the money agreed upon. Fine by me.

Serious? [X(]
So you're saying you were paid a fixed amount that had no relation to sales figures?

So basically if Matrix sold 1 copy or 1.000.000 copies, you would have been paid the same amount?
That can't be right.

And also very strange as Matrix is telling us in this thread that they have to keep prices high, so they can make sure the devs get a fair renumeration for their work.
While according to your statement, the income Matrix generated, has no relation to the payment you receive.
Can somebody clarify this?

I was not planning to get involved in this discussion, but this is very strange (and unfair to the devs; Imagine they score a huge hit with a game and got paid a fixed amount based on a wrong market-forecast)
.
Baseline: of this discussion.
They set the price like they want
We buy if the price is ok with us.

Personnaly: 90 euro for a game (which seems to have performance issues) without a demo and no (independant) reviews?
No way.

All the best to the devs btw


Phil
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