Pricing Suggestion

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Nemo84
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Nemo84 »

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

We don't have anything to add to the price discussion. We disagree with the opinions. Give me an example of a game of the complexity level of Command with the utilitarian look and feel of Command that sells to the mass market and then you have something new to discuss. Other examples are unfortunately irrelevant.

Hardcore flight sims such as the DCS series have similar levels of complexity, far higher production values, require an additional investment of several hundred dollars in peripheral hardware and yet somehow currently sell extremely well on Steam thanks to the massive exposure, extensive demo and $30/$16 regular/sale price. But I expect this example to be either dismissed out of hand or simply ignored, just like all the other times it has been brought up so far.

You may not have anything new to add to this debate, but many of your customers quite clearly do.
JOhnnyr
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by JOhnnyr »

ORIGINAL: jmscho

If someone is tallying opinion, please add one to the satisfied section for me.

Thanks Warfare Sims and Matrix Games.

Let me add an opposite opinion. Right now I don't feel satisfied at all. I was one of the people who felt the price was too high. Against my better judgment I decided to try it.

Well, the game seems like it could be interesting, but right now I'm not having any fun due to the extremely poor performance. The UI is sluggish and often takes multiple clicks to register anything, Zooming takes seconds and is delayed, And the units on screen don't move smoothly or consistently.

This is all on a high end machine (i7 4770k, GTX660 Ti, 8GB ram, SSD, win8 64-bit).

I'm not the only one with these issues, it does the same thing on my laptop, as well as several others in the "Performance" thread. For $80 I expected the game to at least be playable. At this point it's basically a slideshow.
kaburke61
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by kaburke61 »

Add myself to the "completely satisfied" list...

To compare this to a $59 game (like GTA V, which btw I LOVE) is just silly. The depth/scope is amazing.
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JiminyJickers
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by JiminyJickers »

I have now bought it and have played around a little bit. For the amount of gameplay and possibility this title offers, I think the price is fair.

Just looking at the database of units show how incredible detail has been put into this game. For example, I visited the New Zealand Army when younger and they showed us these missile launchers they had. I thought it couldn't possibly be in the game, but there they are. I am so going to be creating some scenarios based around my country.

The price is the same as an top shelf AAA title in New Zealand, but I think I will be getting much more out of this and for years to come, which can't be said for most of the AAA titles.





.
wombat778
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by wombat778 »

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
Hardcore flight sims such as the DCS series have similar levels of complexity, far higher production values, require an additional investment of several hundred dollars in peripheral hardware and yet somehow currently sell extremely well on Steam thanks to the massive exposure, extensive demo and $30/$16 regular/sale price. But I expect this example to be either dismissed out of hand or simply ignored, just like all the other times it has been brought up so far.

In fairness, Iain asked for examples "with the utilitarian look and feel of Command." While DCS may not have the most cutting edge graphics in the world, it is orders of magnitude prettier than Command. On top of that, (i) DCS can be configured as essentially an arcade game if you choose, (ii) DCS A-10C on release was $60 and that was several years ago, (iii) adding up all the DCS modules when new comes to several hundred dollars, including fairly hefty prices for relatively small updates (e.g. Black Shark -> Black Shark 2).
Dimitris
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Dimitris »

ORIGINAL: JOhnnyr
ORIGINAL: jmscho

If someone is tallying opinion, please add one to the satisfied section for me.

Thanks Warfare Sims and Matrix Games.

Let me add an opposite opinion. Right now I don't feel satisfied at all. I was one of the people who felt the price was too high. Against my better judgment I decided to try it.

Well, the game seems like it could be interesting, but right now I'm not having any fun due to the extremely poor performance. The UI is sluggish and often takes multiple clicks to register anything, Zooming takes seconds and is delayed, And the units on screen don't move smoothly or consistently.

This is all on a high end machine (i7 4770k, GTX660 Ti, 8GB ram, SSD, win8 64-bit).

I'm not the only one with these issues, it does the same thing on my laptop, as well as several others in the "Performance" thread. For $80 I expected the game to at least be playable. At this point it's basically a slideshow.

Hi there,

I know this is not much of a consolation, but we've had the same report from some other folks; thankfully not many, but enough that it's a serious issue. Curiously the UI-performance problem (more exactly, map zoom/pan lag problem) seems to be independent of hardware specs; as in your case, most of the people had the problem appear in high-end rigs. I can assure you we are looking into this very carefully. Please allow us some time to find a solution.

Thanks!
wombat778
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by wombat778 »

ORIGINAL: JOhnnyr

Well, the game seems like it could be interesting, but right now I'm not having any fun due to the extremely poor performance. The UI is sluggish and often takes multiple clicks to register anything, Zooming takes seconds and is delayed, And the units on screen don't move smoothly or consistently.

This is all on a high end machine (i7 4770k, GTX660 Ti, 8GB ram, SSD, win8 64-bit).

I'm not the only one with these issues, it does the same thing on my laptop, as well as several others in the "Performance" thread. For $80 I expected the game to at least be playable. At this point it's basically a slideshow.

Odd. I am experiencing perfectly fine performance on a much more modest machine than yours, and it even is running no problem on my old mac laptop through VMware.
Tomn
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Tomn »

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

We don't have anything to add to the price discussion. We disagree with the opinions. Give me an example of a game of the complexity level of Command with the utilitarian look and feel of Command that sells to the mass market and then you have something new to discuss. Other examples are unfortunately irrelevant.

I feel like this is a constant sticking point. There is, in fact, a middle ground between "Call of Warcraft Battlefield 64" and "Super Quartermaster Simulator 2022." The point isn't "Oh, this game won't appeal to Xbox kiddies, therefore we should cater to nothing but the hardest core of hardcore grognards." The point is "There is in fact a very large group of non-hardcore potential grognards who, while not as numerous as the Xbox kiddies, is still so numerous as to justify lowering prices and easing accessibility." The argument is not that Matrix should use mass market strategies, but rather that the overall market has recently become so vast that even a small niche has enough potential customers in absolute terms to justify lowered prices - in effect, that the market has changed, and changed very significantly, since the days when pricing high was the only way a small, niche publisher could stay afloat.

As proof, I point to the fact that the niche of freaking truck driving is large enough to warrant putting up on Steam at an affordable price - and has, in fact, become a top seller. If you don't think a truck driving sim is sufficiently complex to compare with wargames, I point to Kerbal Space Program, a game that is literally about rocket science. Are you really claiming that the niche for wargames is really so much smaller and less profitable than the truck driving niche and the space program niche that it cannot possibly make more money using the same strategies they do? No, not everybody will like Command - but the same applies to Euro Truck Truck Simulator 2 and Kerbal Space Program, and yet they manage quite standout successes.

I repeat: The point is NOT that everyone will like Command. The point is NOT that it will become an instant runaway success that awes the world if the price was lowered. The point is NOT that people are any more accepting of wargames now than they were twenty years ago, or that there are more of those people around. The point is rather that it is now much, much easier to reach out to hidden grognards who never realized that wargames were their niche than it was twenty years ago, so long as the price is right and good distribution channels are used. To use an analogy, it's the difference between advertising by putting up posters outside the store and taking out a national TV broadcast ad - the potential market is and always has been very large, but hard to reach. If you believe that this is entirely untrue, how do you explain the success stories behind a thousand and one tiny, ridiculous niches that would never have turned a profit or appeared on the shelves in the past sprouting up all over the place now?
thewood1
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by thewood1 »

Someone mention earlier how dead it was in this forum...there are over two pages of threads with posts from today. This might be the most active forum at Matrix now. Plus activity at a couple other sights as well.
Nemo84
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Nemo84 »

ORIGINAL: wombat778

In fairness, Iain asked for examples "with the utilitarian look and feel of Command." While DCS may not have the most cutting edge graphics in the world, it is orders of magnitude prettier than Command. On top of that, (i) DCS can be configured as essentially an arcade game if you choose, (ii) DCS A-10C on release was $60 and that was several years ago, (iii) adding up all the DCS modules when new comes to several hundred dollars, including fairly hefty prices for relatively small updates (e.g. Black Shark -> Black Shark 2).

Put the criteria tight enough and it's easy to dismiss just about any example. I would also say that features such as pretty graphics and an additional optional arcade mode require significant development resource and would thus warrant an ever higher retail price. However these features aid in attracting new customers and thus easily repay themselves. Again, a smart business move.

As for (ii), DCS was indeed $60 on release several years ago. My counterarguments are threefold. Firstly, the DCS developers have realized that lower prices means more profits, and adjusted accordingly. New releases now cost $40, VAT included. Secondly, prices are also being dropped when products age, a practice Matrix is also extremely opposed to despite it being a frequent customer complaint. And thirdly, even the original $60 (VAT included) price is still a massive difference with this game's $105 (VAT included), despite having far superior production values.

And finally (iii), this is a false analogy. Each module is a distinct, independent title with its own distinct complexity and long development process. The entry cost for a new customer can be as low as $15. Apart from the multiplayer compatibility, it's no different from Matrix reusing and modifying the Uncommon Valor engine and framework into War Plan Orange and the two War in the Pacific titles. The Black Shark to Black Shark 2 upgrade was also far from small. Oh, and given the current DCS sale, I can in fact buy all the currently-released DCS content (7 full games) for only $15 more than Command: $120 (VAT included).
JOhnnyr
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by JOhnnyr »

ORIGINAL: Sunburn
ORIGINAL: JOhnnyr
ORIGINAL: jmscho

If someone is tallying opinion, please add one to the satisfied section for me.

Thanks Warfare Sims and Matrix Games.

Let me add an opposite opinion. Right now I don't feel satisfied at all. I was one of the people who felt the price was too high. Against my better judgment I decided to try it.

Well, the game seems like it could be interesting, but right now I'm not having any fun due to the extremely poor performance. The UI is sluggish and often takes multiple clicks to register anything, Zooming takes seconds and is delayed, And the units on screen don't move smoothly or consistently.

This is all on a high end machine (i7 4770k, GTX660 Ti, 8GB ram, SSD, win8 64-bit).

I'm not the only one with these issues, it does the same thing on my laptop, as well as several others in the "Performance" thread. For $80 I expected the game to at least be playable. At this point it's basically a slideshow.

Hi there,

I know this is not much of a consolation, but we've had the same report from some other folks; thankfully not many, but enough that it's a serious issue. Curiously the UI-performance problem (more exactly, map zoom/pan lag problem) seems to be independent of hardware specs; as in your case, most of the people had the problem appear in high-end rigs. I can assure you we are looking into this very carefully. Please allow us some time to find a solution.

Thanks!

Thanks for the reply Sunburn. I'm glad you guys are looking into it. Hopefully it's something simple. =)
wombat778
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by wombat778 »

ORIGINAL: Tomn
I point to Kerbal Space Program, a game that is literally about rocket science.

While not addressing the rest of your points, I just want to note that Kerbal Space Program may not be the best example. I am always looking for good simulations so I went to the website for it to check it out. What I find is a game involving cute yellow characters that look more than a little like the minions from Despicable Me. The features listed for the game include "Take your Kerbal crew out of the ship and do Extra Vehicular Activities" and you can download a "Kerbalizer" to "create your own custom Kerbal....Dress it up...Give it hairstyles." Not sure I would really compare this to Command...
Xornox
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Xornox »

ORIGINAL: wombat778
While not addressing the rest of your points, I just want to note that Kerbal Space Program may not be the best example. I am always looking for good simulations so I went to the website for it to check it out. What I find is a game involving cute yellow characters that look more than a little like the minions from Despicable Me. .....

Not sure I would really compare this to Command...

Actually it is one of the best rocket simulations available currently (at least I do not know better). I learnt basics of orbital flying with it.

Do not let looks to deceive you. The simulation may be excellent although little yellow minions are flying devices. Actually those characters does not do anything in the simulation. They are just living "cargo" for rockets. Kerbal is excellent example how you can combine serious and light content and gain wide audience for the game. Kerbal is played from 10 years old kids to 40-50 years old guys like me.


Nemo84
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Nemo84 »

ORIGINAL: wombat778

ORIGINAL: Tomn
I point to Kerbal Space Program, a game that is literally about rocket science.

While not addressing the rest of your points, I just want to note that Kerbal Space Program may not be the best example. I am always looking for good simulations so I went to the website for it to check it out. What I find is a game involving cute yellow characters that look more than a little like the minions from Despicable Me. The features listed for the game include "Take your Kerbal crew out of the ship and do Extra Vehicular Activities" and you can download a "Kerbalizer" to "create your own custom Kerbal....Dress it up...Give it hairstyles." Not sure I would really compare this to Command...


It's a game that requires the player to perform realistic orbital maneuvers, with all the corresponding calculations and complexity. They merely had the good business sense to dress it up in an attractive package. All that stuff you mention is optional extras, little gimmicks tacked on the actual game to make it more fun. So it's an excellent example of how complex, deep games can easily be turned into massive commercial successes.

At this very second more than 2660 people are playing a deep game asking them to do complex calculations of orbital mechanics using a simplistic utilitarian UI, making it the 39th most played Steam game at this moment. Yet according to Iain, Eric and the others at Matrix the average gamer has zero interests in deep complex games, and such titles could never have mass appeal.
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Mad Russian
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: JOhnnyr
ORIGINAL: jmscho

If someone is tallying opinion, please add one to the satisfied section for me.

Thanks Warfare Sims and Matrix Games.

Let me add an opposite opinion. Right now I don't feel satisfied at all. I was one of the people who felt the price was too high. Against my better judgment I decided to try it.

Well, the game seems like it could be interesting, but right now I'm not having any fun due to the extremely poor performance. The UI is sluggish and often takes multiple clicks to register anything, Zooming takes seconds and is delayed, And the units on screen don't move smoothly or consistently.

This is all on a high end machine (i7 4770k, GTX660 Ti, 8GB ram, SSD, win8 64-bit).

I'm not the only one with these issues, it does the same thing on my laptop, as well as several others in the "Performance" thread. For $80 I expected the game to at least be playable. At this point it's basically a slideshow.

I would give them a chance to respond to that issue. That doesn't sound like a game issue and not something that would be long term.

Good Hunting.

MR
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wombat778
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by wombat778 »

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
It's a game that requires the player to perform realistic orbital maneuvers, with all the corresponding calculations and complexity. They merely had the good business sense to dress it up in an attractive package. All that stuff you mention is optional extras, little gimmicks tacked on the actual game to make it more fun. So it's an excellent example of how complex, deep games can easily be turned into massive commercial successes.

Perhaps its good business sense. However, I can tell you without any hesitation that if Matrix decided to put gimmicks like that into Command, I would not buy it. Hell, I would pay double for a version without that stuff. If appealing to the mass market means doing that, I am very glad Matrix stays away.
wombat778
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by wombat778 »

ORIGINAL: Xornox
Actually it is one of the best rocket simulations available currently (at least I do not know better). I learnt basics of orbital flying with it.

Do not let looks to deceive you. The simulation may be excellent although little yellow minions are flying devices. Actually those characters does not do anything in the simulation. They are just living "cargo" for rockets. Kerbal is excellent example how you can combine serious and light content and gain wide audience for the game. Kerbal is played from 10 years old kids to 40-50 years old guys like me.

Good to know, thanks. Still, I think the chances of me buying it went to basically zero when I saw those characters. In contrast, the marketing for Command appealed to me immediately. Just goes to show that different marketing strategies work for different kinds of people...
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PipFromSlitherine
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by PipFromSlitherine »

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

ORIGINAL: wombat778

ORIGINAL: Tomn
I point to Kerbal Space Program, a game that is literally about rocket science.

While not addressing the rest of your points, I just want to note that Kerbal Space Program may not be the best example. I am always looking for good simulations so I went to the website for it to check it out. What I find is a game involving cute yellow characters that look more than a little like the minions from Despicable Me. The features listed for the game include "Take your Kerbal crew out of the ship and do Extra Vehicular Activities" and you can download a "Kerbalizer" to "create your own custom Kerbal....Dress it up...Give it hairstyles." Not sure I would really compare this to Command...


It's a game that requires the player to perform realistic orbital maneuvers, with all the corresponding calculations and complexity. They merely had the good business sense to dress it up in an attractive package. All that stuff you mention is optional extras, little gimmicks tacked on the actual game to make it more fun. So it's an excellent example of how complex, deep games can easily be turned into massive commercial successes.
I'm not sure I agree. The underlying complexity is high, yes - but then so is the driving model in Gran Tourismo. Indeed, Dirt probably has a highly accurate physics and automotive model, but the game itself is very far from being aimed at a niche market.

I guess one could take Command and put a Battle Stations: Midway or Pacific Fleet game around the superlative simulation, but then it would be a very different game.

Cheers

Pip
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Nemo84
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by Nemo84 »

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine

I'm not sure I agree. The underlying complexity is high, yes - but then so is the driving model in Gran Tourismo. Indeed, Dirt probably has a highly accurate physics and automotive model, but the game itself is very far from being aimed at a niche market.

I guess one could take Command and put a Battle Stations: Midway or Pacific Fleet game around the superlative simulation, but then it would be a very different game.

Cheers

Pip

But Kerbal Space Program actually makes the player interact with this underlying complexity in a way that first requires him to understand the mechanics of that complexity. The same can not be said for Gran Tourismo. And while Kerbal might indeed not be as complex as Command or DCS, it is of the same or higher complexity than the majority of the titles sold by Matrix. Yet Matrix claims pretty much all of its games are too complex and deep for the average gamer, a claim which is thus once again dispelled by actual commercial successes from other publishers and developers. Hence why it's a great example.

By the way, I do strongly suggest you guys look into developing lower-complexity games around the engines and datasets from your high-complexity titles. It need not be as arcade as the Battle Stations: Midway example you give, but it would be an excellent way to get more mileage out of already developed assets.
wombat778
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RE: Pricing Suggestion

Post by wombat778 »

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
Put the criteria tight enough and it's easy to dismiss just about any example. I would also say that features such as pretty graphics and an additional optional arcade mode require significant development resource and would thus warrant an ever higher retail price. However these features aid in attracting new customers and thus easily repay themselves. Again, a smart business move.
...

Gah! I had a long and detailed point by point response typed up, all of which disappeared when my browser died. Since I can't bear to type it all out again, I'll just say I disagree on a bunch of your DCS points. In the end though, none of it probably matters. Matrix has a business model and they seem to be sticking to it. As customers, its our job to decide whether we want to pay to play. Me, I'm off to go play Command some more...[;)]
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