Mighty blizzard jumping paratroopers

[rmonical]

900ish man Soviet airborne brigade drops and displaces a roughly a Romanian army HQ, a panzer army HQ, a panzer corps HQ, a German army airbase and 100% damage the rail in the hex.

I'm scratching my head over that. I know the HQ location is notional, but the airbase?

I have not played with the Soviet airborne yet so I don't know what the brigade looked like after a drop in terms of fatigue and damaged elements. The combat results said it lost 140 men on the drop and then another 750 when it surrendered in the counterattack in my turn. This drop was intercepted by a fighter base with over 100 operational fighters and 17 out of 35 LI-2s were lost but only 140 out of some 900 paratroopers were lost. The fighter base was 2 hexes from the drop hex so it was not displaced.

They also dropped next to the Panzer corp huddled in Dnepropetrovsk during a blizzard turn. Looks like it dropped 8 hexes from the originating airbase.

Half of the transport lost. Involved in immediate combat with non combat units forcing displacement and 80% of the paratroopers are around for the counter attack. And, of course, the rail line is 100% damaged.

Since my Dad was in the 82nd in WWII and I've been through airborne school I have had an abiding interest in airborne operations. This does not pass my smell test.

It is just broken. I see why the house rule for no air drops is so common.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

I don't know what the brigade looked like after a drop in terms of fatigue and damaged elements.

I can't tell you because I didn't look at this information after the drop. The purpose of the drop was basically to cut the rail line. Displacing the HQs and air base is an added benefit. The only way to protect against this is to have troops with ZOC along the rail line. The Romanians are an obvious choice as they are completely useless as combat troops. The benefits of cutting the rail line is obvious. You can't rail your troops out and supply is drastically reduced.

Downside of this tactic. Soviets lose an airborne brigade which doesn't matter to me as I am willing to sacrifice unlimited number of Russian troops. [:D] More problematic is the loss of Li-2 transports. Since I only produce 9 per turn there is a limit of what I can do regarding paratroopers.

I'm against house rules regarding paratroopers. However, there is one thing that could really improve this function in the game. At the moment you can only drop airborne brigades on a valid hex (not adjacent to a combat unit). The system tells you if the hex is invalid and prevents the drop. I would get rid of this and let airborne brigades drop on anything and get routed immediately if they drop on a combat unit. Also, there should be a chance that the airborne brigade is dropped in an adjacent hex instead of the target hex. Even Panzer Corps has this feature.

The real crazy thing about the Soviets is their amphibious capabilities in 41. This should be severely limited in 41. There should be no amphibious landings west of the Crimea in 41.

[rmonical]

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

I don't know what the brigade looked like after a drop in terms of fatigue and damaged elements.

I can't tell you because I didn't look at this information after the drop. The purpose of the drop was basically to cut the rail line. Displacing the HQs and air base is an added benefit. The only way to protect against this is to have troops with ZOC along the rail line. The Romanians are an obvious choice as they are completely useless as combat troops. The benefits of cutting the rail line is obvious. You can't rail your troops out and supply is drastically reduced.

Downside of this tactic. Soviets lose an airborne brigade which doesn't matter to me as I am willing to sacrifice unlimited number of Russian troops. [:D] More problematic is the loss of Li-2 transports. Since I only produce 9 per turn there is a limit of what I can do regarding paratroopers.

I'm against house rules regarding paratroopers. However, there is one thing that could really improve this function in the game. At the moment you can only drop airborne brigades on a valid hex (not adjacent to a combat unit). The system tells you if the hex is invalid and prevents the drop. I would get rid of this and let airborne brigades drop on anything and get routed immediately if they drop on a combat unit. Also, there should be a chance that the airborne brigade is dropped in an adjacent hex instead of the target hex. Even Panzer Corps has this feature.

The real crazy thing about the Soviets is their amphibious capabilities in 41. This should be severely limited in 41. There should be no amphibious landings west of the Crimea in 41.

The payback for sacrificing this airborne brigade was huge. By displacing the Pz XXX HQ, it ensured this Pz XXX did not get fuel. It was ready to rail out to face the massive amphibious operation east of Odessa which will be the subject of another post. So instead of being in position to rail out this turn, the Pz XXX will take two turns to get to an operative rail hex since there is no way the 100% damaged hex will get repaired in a single turn (next turn). Had the HQ not been displaced, it is likely the corps would have received enough fuel to make it the operative rail. Indeed, the regiments will make it. In addition, it will not receive the planned HQBU.

Airborne can drop adjacent to combat units as it dropped adjacent to 47th Pz XXX. ZOC have no impact.

It will be interesting to see if you can move an airbase into Ochakov and repeat the mighty paratrooper exercise and cut rail lines deep in AGS rear. It appears that no number of Axis fighters will prevent the transports from getting through during the blizzard. If we make it to clear, it will be interesting to see what your paratroopers can do against the still formidable German fighter force in 1942.

I suspect WITW will not help much here as all of the allied airborne operations were under the cover of massive air superiority. A German attempt to do something similar in the Ardennes in 1944 was largely ineffective.

Re: your points. As I said in PM, I also dislike house rules as I took on the Axis one more time to validate the identified flaws in the game engine I have documented elsewhere. Playing you is good because you exercise the engine to the fullest. So house rules are required to address the most egregious flaws. This is one of those.

I agree the free intel capability has to go. Drops on any unit should result in the brigade being shattered. Drops adjacent to a combat unit should result in a possibility of being shattered and a greater possibility of being disrupted on drop. Drops that face losses to fighters should have a possibility of being shattered and a greater possibility of being disrupted. Drops during bad weather should have an almost 100% chance of being disrupted. Soviet droops in the first year of the war should have a greater chance of shattering/disruption. Irrespective of the state of the unit after the drop - it should not cause displacement of adjacent non-combat units.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Airborne can drop adjacent to combat units as it dropped adjacent to 47th Pz XXX. ZOC have no impact.

Didn't even realize that. So you have to have a continuous line of troops to guard the rail line close to the front. But you can also use your HQs and air bases because airborne brigades can't land on enemy units.

HQ displacement is a real problem and should not happen.

[Walloc]

Not that Arent issues cuz there are. Things are to easy overall and its an unfotunate side effects of teh AB bde being a combat unit and the HQ getting displaced but its not like there isnt historical precedence even in blizzard conditions of....

http://home.hccnet.nl/e.kooistra/airbornoperations.html

Major Kobets's battalion and other Soviet airborne and cavalry units cut the Vyaz"ma-Smolensk Rollbahn repeatedly after 27 January, causing the German higher command considerable concern. On 31 January, Halder noted:


In Center, . . . the situation remains tight.
More heavy fighting on the supply road to
Yukhnov. The enemy is moving new forces westward
through the gap between Fourth Army and Fourth
Panzer Army. The attack to seal the gap has been
Postponed to 3 Feb. . . . Enemy air landings
continue. Highway and railroad lines between
Smolensk-Vyaz'ma still not cleared. Condition of
troops ' Fourth Army is serious!. SUPPLY
. . difficulties

[rmonical]

but its not like there isn't historical precedence even in blizzard conditions of....

For whatever reason,this game left the Luftwaffe in good shape going into the blizzard. Fighters are up to strength and have high 90s morale. Many ME109s are in the pool. Looking at Moscow 41-42, the Luftwaffe is much weaker. So in addition to the displacement issue, which is huge, the Russians are able to deliver their paratroopers against strong fighter cover. That is my dominant issue because I am not sure when that ever happened. Note that in your example, no transports were lost to fighters.

Edit: Just to be clear, we are talking about 120 operational ME 109s 2 hexes (20 KM) from the drop hex.

[Walloc]

There special rules concerning the luftwaffe's use in game during blizzard conditions. Right or wrong one could see the reason that no tranporters was shoot down historicly was the reasons for making such a rule and well parts of the drops purposely takes place during night exactly to avoid the that problem. Doesnt help to have figther planes if they cant fly, rightly or wrongly so.

16.1.5. Air Missions and Weather Impact
Whenever an air mission is attempted in bad weather, defined as mud, snow and blizzard, there is a chance it will be scrubbed and not take place. If the air mission is scrubbed, the air group unit's miles flown will be increased by one, which will prevent the unit from flying the air missions that require that no missions were flown earlier in the turn (16.3.1). With the exception of Finland, all Axis air group units will suffer the full effects of weather. Soviet and Finnish air group units will have less chance of suffering weather effects.

Air missions attempted in snow and mud have a forty percent chance of being scrubbed. The probability of a scrubbed mission increases to eighty percent during blizzard weather. If the air group unit does conduct the air mission, the distance flown will be multiplied by four in blizzard conditions and by two in mud or snow conditions. The number of individual aircraft aborting will also increase in bad weather, with blizzard conditions making it twice as difficult to fly as snow or mud. As with all air missions, the mileage flown will be modified based on the number of ready aircraft in the air group unit that actually flew, but the weather mileage penalty will apply, so the result will be fewer aircraft flying, but more miles expended per aircraft.


Fact is 7739 paratroopers was dropped, they did interupt supplies and just like in game, will less some one links up too them few escape.
Overall the operation it wasnt a succes tho as it didnt achieve what was planned and casulties was both for planes and AB troops high especially with operation Hannover a bit later, but as far as doing exactly what it does in game. It did that, interupt supplies cause some chaos/constatination in behind the german lines and then they died.

Again is to easy to use it too many places sure, but if this is a one time drop i cant see its much different then the historic one. That per u above should be near impossible, well it wasnt, nor was it a succes as in achieveing its goal, but it did achieve what it does in game.

Was it unlucky/unfortunate to land just on the HQs, sure. Is Intel far to easy to get, yes but it goes for both sides.

Rasmus

[rmonical]

My point is that of the 100+ fighters available 20 KM from the drop hex, 27 made it through, shot down half the transports (with the help of flack) but 80% of the paratroopers still made it - 750 men. The drop was not negatively impacted by three rested high MP Pz/Mot divisions adjacent to the drop hex and those 750 men subsequently completely cut the rail hex and caused some 35,000 - 40,000 rear area troops to suffer the effects of displacement.

You cannot compare this to the historical situation where the Luftwaffe was effectively not present. Airborne operations are affected by air power

[Bozo_the_Clown]

I can't tell you how these numbers are calculated. The combat system is just too obscure. However, the original size of the airborne brigade was around 2500 men.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: rmonical

My point is that of the 100+ fighters available 20 KM from the drop hex, 27 made it through, shot down half the transports (with the help of flack) but 80% of the paratroopers still made it - 750 men. The drop was not negatively impacted by three rested high MP Pz/Mot divisions adjacent to the drop hex and those 750 men subsequently completely cut the rail hex and caused some 35,000 - 40,000 rear area troops to suffer the effects of displacement.

You cannot compare this to the historical situation where the Luftwaffe was effectively not present. Airborne operations are affected by air power

And of those 27 how many individually aborted? and how many of the half those transports was shoot down by flak and how many was ops losses. If 80%(read bozo post after so it infact only 1/3 landed) of the bde drops it certainly suggestests that many of the transport losses could be flak/ops loss based and didnt necesarrily happen pre the drop. Tho bozo's post suggested it did and it did have an effect.

Also this is a weekly game luftwaffe did supsequently did affect the operations within what is a week/turns of time. If u read the article above it goes into details about that. That didnt stop the drops historicly tho, but ddi interfere with them. Its clear tho that the weather handicapped both sides inclduing luftwaffe's ability to stop the drops. If it had been clear weather and the 120 F had flown instead of 27 with a high abort rate cuz of blizzard teh result in all likelyhood could have been different.

Historicly the bde's dropped in same or adjecent depending on exactly u would translate history in to how it looks on a WiTE map as larger parts of 11th Pz Div. Plus on the other side was 5th Pz Div. They interfered inparticular 11th Pz after the drops but it didnt stop the supply from being stopped.

This example from ur game actually pretty close to exactly what happened. Yes the displacement is unfortunate but not unavoible. U could argue an AB bde shouldnt have a ZoC and i think it would be right. Other than that it follows the historic example amazingly closely. The only thing that is missing at leased u make no mention fo this is the infiltratinfg Cav corps historicly.

Drops that was widely scattered interferes with supplies tho the drops was larger in RL, adjecent to Pz/mot divs that is able to to counter the drops but only after some times passes and they dont stop the airborne troops from stopping supply its even in the 4th Pz Army own records and the airborne troops are toast in game a bit less so in RL as some defiltrated out, but oveall the losses was high.

The 4th Panzer Army records confirm that the Rallbahn west of Vyaz'ma was closed continuously for three days after January 28.

The raildroad was closed longer.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Walloc makes a very good point. We have no idea when the transports were shot down. Obviously most of them were shot down on their way back to the air base after they dropped the men.

The original size of 2500 is misleading. As I have posted in a different thread only a part of the men participate in the airdrop. The soldiers who are left behind get stuffed into the nearest airborne brigade. Do this often enough and you get a monster airborne brigade with 20+ CV.

[rmonical]

The 4th Panzer Army records confirm that the Rallbahn west of Vyaz'ma was closed continuously for three days after January 28.

Which is my recommendation exactly. The effect of an airborne drop of a unit roughly the size of a full strength partisan battalion should be more like the partisan's effect than a rifle brigade's effect. This rail line will be closed down for at least two weeks (if I move an FBD unit to it) or more likely, three. So in addition to the displacing thousands of troops, this operation is roughly seven times as effective as the one you cite.

I think is safe to say that the original lift was about 900 combat troops in one sortie with 35 LI-2s. An LI-2 should be able to lift about 28. The system may have wanted to deliver more troops but I suspect the first sortie did the LI-2s in. With half of the transports shot down but only 20% of the troops effected, then the argument is most of the transport loses were after the troops were dropped. Not implausible for a small drop even though it was the second in three weeks.

The 20% casualty number on the drop strikes me as completely implausible given these circumstances.

[rmonical]

Do this often enough and you get a monster airborne brigade with 20+ CV.

Figures.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Figures.

Of course, this is a minor bug and the system corrects itself after a couple of turns.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: rmonical

The 4th Panzer Army records confirm that the Rallbahn west of Vyaz'ma was closed continuously for three days after January 28.

Which is my recommendation exactly. The effect of an airborne drop of a unit roughly the size of a full strength partisan battalion should be more like the partisan's effect than a rifle brigade's effect. This rail line will be closed down for at least two weeks (if I move an FBD unit to it) or more likely, three. So in addition to the displacing thousands of troops, this operation is roughly seven times as effective as the one you cite.

Actually the RR was closed for almost 1½ week. If u had, had a Construction unit in a HQ in range. For example ar army or AG HQs which have fairly long range to do this. Unit lands on turn 1. u kill it in that the next turn which is teh first u get affected by any supply issues and in turn 2 the Construction unit repairs the RR automaticly. AS close as u can get to the same timeline as in history. Also u just draws supply from a bit further its not like u isolated or any thing.

If u look at the historic number of transport used over a week they would have been able to in this example of dropping a full bde. u cant ingame, thats not necearrily Bozo fault.
The 7729 was over a slightly longer periode. 2 bde is dropped in the first week and effective strength wasnt all that higher than the 800ish men enough to casue the above stated supply issues along with the infiltrating cav corps.
Any how sounds like u made up ur mind on the issues and and facts isnt gona get in the way, if u show an example of more or less the same happning historic as in game with the exception of the displacement which is an unfortunate side effect of the displacement rule.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Since my Dad was in the 82nd in WWII and I've been through airborne school I have had an abiding interest in airborne operations.

Somewhat off topic but my Dad was in the German Navy during WW2 as an 18 year old. So at least technically our fathers were fighting each other.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

This example from ur game actually pretty close to exactly what happened.

First off all, thanks for posting the link to the Glanz article. It was an interesting read. All stuff I didn't know about. I'm actually amazed how close the example of the game is to what happened historically. The numbers for men dropped and transports used are almost identical. Even the limited fighter escort I used for the air drop. Kind of cool to see this happen in the game.

[rmonical]

I'm actually amazed how close the example of the game is to what happened historically.

Maybe an image will help differentiate between the two situations. Take away the air power aspect, the space aspect is also very different.

[rmonical]

with the exception of the displacement which is an unfortunate side effect of the displacement rule.

My primary observation is displacement is the major issue.

My other observation is that deep air drops against effective fighter cover do not succeed.

In this situation, an improbable 80% of the troops (750) make it through the fighters and flak and then, in blizzard conditions, are able to walk to and destroy 10 miles of rail line (100% damage) with no interference from the 100,000ish troops surrounding the drop zone.

Further the AI choose not to deploy any of the construction battalions from the various Army HQs within a few hexes of the drop zone, so a week later it remains 100% damaged. I'm not sure why this occurred because the battalions are sitting in the HQs and not otherwise deployed.

I'm sure this remarkable effectiveness of deep airborne drops in the face of enemy fighters will be repaired in the game system by the time the designers get to France 40.

[rmonical]

Further the AI choose not to deploy any of the construction battalions from the various Army HQs within a few hexes of the drop zone, so a week later it remains 100% damaged. I'm not sure why this occurred because the battalions are sitting in the HQs and not otherwise deployed.

OK, I moved a Romanian army HQ to the hex to prevent a repeat. Will that prevent German construction battalions from deploying to it?