Combat modification strat mode

[PT boat skipper]

Can anyone pls tell me the combat modification due to strat mode (railway transportation) -10%, -20%?

/J

[Bullwinkle58]

I don't know that one has ever been quoted by the devs. I just did a quick manual search and didn't find one.

I think it's safe to assume it's a lot higher than 10-20%. The mode models weapons and equipment being crated and palletized, not accessible to troops. They are most often riding in rail cars or on xAP ships in berthing spaces, sleeping and playing cards.

I don't know a number, but a unit in Combat attacking a unit in Strat will devastate it. Don't use Strat mode unless the route is safe and you have time to convert mode at the end of the line.

[PT boat skipper]

Thanks Moose,

That was my thought too until a few days ago. That is: never deploy a strat mode unit near the enemy. However, my opponent did just that (in jungle terrain and fort lvl 3) and my attacking units were almost completely destroyed/devastated.

In order words, the modifier must be negated by the forts and the terrain.


See example below (I had a clear 2-1 AV-advantage before enemy units arrived on strat-mode the same day as the attack. There was no air attacks from either side, the japanese however bombarded with three BB, three CA, 1CL and 10+ DD (2 TFs). The Japanese disruption levels were about 5-8):

Ground combat at Jaffna (31,45)

Japanese Shock attack
Attacking force 28725 troops, 393 guns, 90 vehicles, Assault Value = 626
Defending force 42246 troops, 649 guns, 1026 vehicles, Assault Value = 1494

Japanese adjusted assault: 89
Allied adjusted defense: 1621

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 18 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), op mode(-), Note: strat-mode, preparation(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
4394 casualties reported
Squads: 84 destroyed, 464 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 81 disabled
Engineers: 14 destroyed, 36 disabled
Guns lost 52 (2 destroyed, 50 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
60 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 9 disabled Note: so much more extra vulnerability in strat mode?
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Assaulting units:
25th Division
24th Division
2nd Recon Regiment
4th Ind.Mixed Regiment
Yokosuka 3rd SNLF
54th JNAF AF Unit
20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Army
2nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
7th Base Force
7th Air Defense AA Regiment
55th JNAF AF Unit

Defending units:
2/10th Armoured Regiment
6th Australian Division - strat mode
2nd British Division - strat mode
3/4 Ghurka Rifles Battalion
100th Indian Brigade - strat mode
99th Indian Brigade - strat mode
2/8th Armoured Regiment
98th Indian Brigade
I Australian Corps - strat mode
40th Field Artillery Regiment - strat mode
109th RN Base Force

[Numdydar]

For Japan being attacked by enemy LCUs in Strat modes is never an issue lol.

[Grollub]

I just compared the disruption/disablement of the units from the previous turn to this one. It's circumstantial, but it looks like the few disablements that were caused mostly happened to the INF LCUs already present, that is 3/4 Gurkhas and the 99th Ind Bde.

[Grollub]

I don't know if I remember this correctly, but in the epic Rader vs. Greyjoy AAR, didn't Rader rail in massive reinforcements when Greyjoy landed on Honshu?

[LoBaron]

Hm, looking at the combat report, with that force relation and forts+jungle the Allied troops probably could have been sleeping soundly after a drunken night out and still maul the Japanese attack.

Shock attack only made things worse as it exposed the attackers to two defender fire phases.

Strat mode can be devastating, but only when the odds are equally distributed.

[PT boat skipper]

So what you are saying LoBaron, is that with Forts and good terrain (Jungle) and superiority in numbers Strat Mode will do just fine? In that case this is the perfect invasion defense! Why have lots of troops in combat mode guarding different beaches when you can have the tropps hidden inland, in strat-mode, rushing instantly to an invasion beach and thus avoiding any shore bombardments and air attacks and then are effective enough to defeat an invasion. I would love to use that tactic but is it realistic at all?

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Hm, looking at the combat report, with that force relation and forts+jungle the Allied troops probably could have been sleeping soundly after a drunken night out and still maul the Japanese attack.

Shock attack only made things worse as it exposed the attackers to two defender fire phases.

Strat mode can be devastating, but only when the odds are equally distributed.

[DaveConn]

I have no idea how the code works on this, but there was an infantry brigade and two armoured regiments (plus a base force) already there in combat mode, in good terrain with forts. It is conceivable that the units in strategic mode were only minimally involved, and that the combat mode units bore the brunt of the defense.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: DaveConn

I have no idea how the code works on this, but there was an infantry brigade and two armoured regiments (plus a base force) already there in combat mode, in good terrain with forts. It is conceivable that the units in strategic mode were only minimally involved, and that the combat mode units bore the brunt of the defense.

That's what I figured. Strat mode has always worked inbound to a combat hex if there are other friendlies there in non-strat mode. I always picture the residents giving cover to the unload and de-palletizing of the newcomers. I doubt the strat mode units contributed much or any AV to the day. But I've never tested moving, say, ten strat mode units into a hex with one combat mode defender and then having the hex attacked by a very large attacking force, say ten IDs.

What happens down in the weeds is a mystery to me. I have always figured though that railing in combat troops to a firefight is a last-ditch effort, not something to be planned for.

[bigred]

ORIGINAL: PT boat skipper


Can anyone pls tell me the combat modification due to strat mode (railway transportation) -10%, -20%?

/J

tm.asp?m=2495125&mpage=39&key=
post 1142
-75%

[Alfred]

Gentlemen,

You have been sidetracked into looking at the wrong culprit. Far too easy to blame the strat mode feature for giving a boost to the defence. That POV is wrong.

Two elements stand out from the CR provided in post #3.

1. The unadjusted Japanese AV 626 collapsed to an adjusted AV of 89. Considering that a shock attack was involved, that constitutes a devastating outcome. And no, the Japanese modifiers need not be fully disclosed in the CR even though they still play a part in the outcome.

2. The Allied AV only had a small increase from unadjusted 1494 to adjusted 1621. The small increase is explained by the bulk of the Allied units being in strat mode. If they had all been in combat mode (excluding any damage inflicted during the firing phase) the adjusted AV would have been more in the vicinity of:

(1494)(2 = jungle terrain)(1.5 = level 3 forts) = 4482 adjusted AV

Unlike the OP's claim that the perfect defence to an invasion is to rush to the beaches in strat mode, the fact is that there is a significant penalty associated in relying upon such a defensive tactic. In this case a drop from a potential adjusted AV of 4482 down to only 1621 (which is only 36% of the potential adjusted AV).

Bottom line. The failure of the attack had much more to do with the Japanese profile than that of the Allied. You should look much more closely at why the Japanese AV collapsed.

Alfred

[LoBaron]

Alfred as usual you spotted something not noted by the rest of us.

But in this case I am not sure AV really is the crucial aspect to look here. The Japanese adjusted AV is so low because the troops shock attacked into the face of (rough estimate) at least 5:1 firepower. Thats enough to maul the units. There is nothing wrong with the Japanese attack.

Except there were not enough to get the job done in the face of the additional Allied firepower, strat move or not.

[LoBaron]

To clearify: adjusted AV is the result of the attack. It is the value after everything has been substracted (destroyed/disabled squads, negative attack modiers) and added (positive attack modifiers). It shows the situation after the fight is over.

[Grollub]

PTBS, just for the sake of testing and maybe learning something, I've just sent you that turn again but cancelled the strat move into Jaffna. Could you run that turn and post the resulting combat report? Ok, the result may differ due to changed result of the naval bombardment, my AF might actually decide to fly for once [;)] but it would be "nice to know".

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: PT boat skipper


So what you are saying LoBaron, is that with Forts and good terrain (Jungle) and superiority in numbers Strat Mode will do just fine? In that case this is the perfect invasion defense! Why have lots of troops in combat mode guarding different beaches when you can have the tropps hidden inland, in strat-mode, rushing instantly to an invasion beach and thus avoiding any shore bombardments and air attacks and then are effective enough to defeat an invasion. I would love to use that tactic but is it realistic at all?

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Hm, looking at the combat report, with that force relation and forts+jungle the Allied troops probably could have been sleeping soundly after a drunken night out and still maul the Japanese attack.

Shock attack only made things worse as it exposed the attackers to two defender fire phases.

Strat mode can be devastating, but only when the odds are equally distributed.

Well, this depends on how much is brought to the party. Had the Japanese attack been significantly stronger than the combination of Allied troops in combat mode and strat mode, the result might have been devastating to the Allies. But that force relation is required for any attack anyway.

That said, keeping reserves in strat mode for fast reaction is an option, but it costs. It makes the source base more vulnerable, it is a huge penalty when the attacker has enough firepower, and obviously those units are not dug in.

[LoBaron]

Good idea Grollub! Will be interesting to see the results.

[PT boat skipper]

Will run the test late tonight as I am in charge of a Command & Color: Napolenonics session in the early evening.

Ok, so the modification is -75%, however with at least fort 3 (+50%) and jungle (+50%) that means the allied units are fully operational right? so I am basically shock attacking into a 1-2 or 1-3 situation? Or I am getting something wrong here?

Here is what I mean by the perfect invasion defense:

Day 1: Allied land six divisions in an hex (fort 3+ (+50%) and at least hilly terrain (+50%) defended by about one japanese division (+).
Day 2a: Allies bombard the hex with 10+ battlehips against the defending division
Day 2B: Allies commits 500 bombers against the defending division
Day2C: Japanese reinforcements (12+ Divisions) are railroaded into the hex thus escaping all bombardments and all air attacks
Day2D: Allies shock attack faces 12 combat-ready japanese divisions due to fort- and terrain-modifications counter the strat-mode modifications.

Correct or not?

/J

[Grollub]

Your example is quite at the end of the spectrum ... but ok.

To answer your end question - no you are not correct. Read Alfreds post #12 again.

I find it perfectly logical to build up defense (=forts) at a base and planning for using these as protection for any possible arriving quick reaction forces by rail. Ok, as an army officer I have absolutely no problems with marching, but if I could go by rail I would have no objections. What else are you supposed to use the rail net for?

As for your quip about these railing units avoiding naval bombardment. Yes, that's also quite logical. I know from long experience that you like to use NB wherever you can, but it's not a law of nature that every unit in a hex (or arriving to it) has to be subjected to it. The NB arrived during the night, bombarded and left. Quite logical. During the day, the reinforcements arrive after the NB has left. What's the problem?

As for your concerns that it also avoids any air attacks on the hex/base you are more correct and the sequence of play makes the railing units arrive after the air phases. This might be a little off, but I remind you that this game is not, by far, a perfect representation of how things works in real life. It's a simulation and and a very good one at that if I might say. You can't, however, expect the game to cover for every contingency that might happen though.

Your loss at Jaffna could have been a little softened though if you had bothered to recon and interdict the other bases on the island. Then you would have spotted what you were up against. As it is now you landed completely in the dark, which is why I'm a little unmoved by your frustration over your losses and how little losses I took.

If you had reconned Ceylon, you would've realised that either 1/ you don't have enough ground troops to take it or 2/ you have to add more troops and land at multiple places thereby making sure that you get at least one base to continue on from no matter if I use the railroad to reinforce some of the invasion sites.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Alfred as usual you spotted something not noted by the rest of us.

But in this case I am not sure AV really is the crucial aspect to look here. The Japanese adjusted AV is so low because the troops shock attacked into the face of (rough estimate) at least 5:1 firepower. Thats enough to maul the units. There is nothing wrong with the Japanese attack.

Except there were not enough to get the job done in the face of the additional Allied firepower, strat move or not.

Exactly my point.

The "discussion" on AV is irrelevant. What is relevant is the Japanese profile. IOW what Japan brought to the gunfight, what condition the force was in when the decision to shock attack was made, what measures had been taken beforehand to "shape" the subsequent land battlefield performance.

All this just reinforces the oft mentioned and equally oft dismissed point that it is firepower that matters not AV. AV is only used in determining who retains control of the battlefield after the combat. It is firepower that rules.

Alfred