Newb-friendliness

[MPHopcroft1]

My main complaint about Empire in Arms, and why I haven't touched in a while, is that it is virtually newb-hostile. there is little in the way of tutorial and the only way to learn a very complicated game is to get a teacher (which I can't really do). It looks like a great, intense game but I am completely lost.

Now World in Flames is a big game. There are probably bigger ones, and certainly games that are just as complex (Hearts of Iron from Paradox comes to mind as a very difficult game for a new player to grasp -- it has tutorials but they do not cover movement and combat). Now world in Flames is a somewhat more logical game, and the lack of an AI may actually be helpful in learning (it forces you to have a live opponent who, if he is more experienced, can teach you the game), but there are a lot of rules and a plethora of options. So, while I know that dedicated WiF fans who have played the game for decades will only have problems with the interfaces (and the strategic problem of rarely seeing the entire map) new players (and the game will need new players to be commercially viable) might easily get lost.

So how newb-friendly will Computer WiF be, especially at the beginning of the run?

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

My main complaint about Empire in Arms, and why I haven't touched in a while, is that it is virtually newb-hostile. there is little in the way of tutorial and the only way to learn a very complicated game is to get a teacher (which I can't really do). It looks like a great, intense game but I am completely lost.

So how newb-friendly will Computer WiF be, especially at the beginning of the run?

Here's the starting splash screen. There will also be several training videos.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

My main complaint about Empire in Arms, and why I haven't touched in a while, is that it is virtually newb-hostile. there is little in the way of tutorial and the only way to learn a very complicated game is to get a teacher (which I can't really do). It looks like a great, intense game but I am completely lost.

Now World in Flames is a big game. There are probably bigger ones, and certainly games that are just as complex (Hearts of Iron from Paradox comes to mind as a very difficult game for a new player to grasp -- it has tutorials but they do not cover movement and combat). Now world in Flames is a somewhat more logical game, and the lack of an AI may actually be helpful in learning (it forces you to have a live opponent who, if he is more experienced, can teach you the game), but there are a lot of rules and a plethora of options. So, while I know that dedicated WiF fans who have played the game for decades will only have problems with the interfaces (and the strategic problem of rarely seeing the entire map) new players (and the game will need new players to be commercially viable) might easily get lost.

So how newb-friendly will Computer WiF be, especially at the beginning of the run?

As the designer, project manager, and lead programmer, you might consider me biased in my opinion.[:D]

But in the initial release I have implemented all the suggestions for helping new players that were made over a period of many years (except for the AI Opponent, sadly).

- 10 picture and text tutorials (125+ pages). Look at the pictures and read the text. These are accessible from within a game when you want to refer back to them.

- 10 interactive tutorials. Each loads a saved game and displays instructions on what to do to put the game through its paces. There is a short commentary for each set of instructions to explain what happens.

- 700+ pages of Players Manual in 3 volumes, with 250+ screenshots.

- 12 training videos covering basically the same material as the tutorials. These are broken into chapters ranging from 10 minutes to 70 minutes in length.

- Context sensitive help for each of the 150+ phases/subphase and each of the 150+ forms. This text is cut from the Players Manual, saving you the need to search for a description of a particular phase or form in the Players Manual when you have a question.

- Help pages on all the commonly referenced stuff (terrain effects charts, combat charts, various other tables) available from the Main form's drop down menus.

In essence, I asked the forum members what they would like to have for learning the game, and then I created it.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft
My main complaint about Empire in Arms, and why I haven't touched in a while, is that it is virtually newb-hostile. there is little in the way of tutorial and the only way to learn a very complicated game is to get a teacher (which I can't really do). It looks like a great, intense game but I am completely lost.

Now World in Flames is a big game. There are probably bigger ones, and certainly games that are just as complex (Hearts of Iron from Paradox comes to mind as a very difficult game for a new player to grasp -- it has tutorials but they do not cover movement and combat). Now world in Flames is a somewhat more logical game, and the lack of an AI may actually be helpful in learning (it forces you to have a live opponent who, if he is more experienced, can teach you the game), but there are a lot of rules and a plethora of options. So, while I know that dedicated WiF fans who have played the game for decades will only have problems with the interfaces (and the strategic problem of rarely seeing the entire map) new players (and the game will need new players to be commercially viable) might easily get lost.

So how newb-friendly will Computer WiF be, especially at the beginning of the run?

Since it is on the computer it will help take care of the paper work that usually bogs down a monster game.

It has (as seen in the AAR (After Action Reports)) a zoom mode to get a better picture of the strategic situation.

If your interested in strategies the AI threads here in the forums show several individuals ideas.

But like all monster games it still has a steep learning curve. Which can be overcome by playing some of the smaller scenarios.

[MPHopcroft1]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

As the designer, project manager, and lead programmer, you might consider me biased in my opinion.[:D]

You can be forgiven some justified pride. I've always recognized that converting WiF is a herculean task. Just how many years did it actually take?

But in the initial release I have implemented all the suggestions for helping new players that were made over a period of many years (except for the AI Opponent, sadly).

I know everyone wants an AI. Heck, I want an AI. But it's hard to learn to play a game when the computer spanks you at every opportunity. It's discouraging and you don't really learn from it. Far better to have a live opponent on the other end who can use chat or E-Mail to point out what you're doing as far as staying within the overall rules (and, if he's merciful, sensible play).

If I get the game, I would love to run into such an opponent for my first game or two.

- 10 picture and text tutorials (125+ pages). Look at the pictures and read the text. These are accessible from within a game when you want to refer back to them.

- 10 interactive tutorials. Each loads a saved game and displays instructions on what to do to put the game through its paces. There is a short commentary for each set of instructions to explain what happens.

- 700+ pages of Players Manual in 3 volumes, with 250+ screenshots.

- 12 training videos covering basically the same material as the tutorials. These are broken into chapters ranging from 10 minutes to 70 minutes in length.

- Context sensitive help for each of the 150+ phases/subphase and each of the 150+ forms. This text is cut from the Players Manual, saving you the need to search for a description of a particular phase or form in the Players Manual when you have a question.

- Help pages on all the commonly referenced stuff (terrain effects charts, combat charts, various other tables) available from the Main form's drop down menus.

The lack of all those things in Empires in Arms is a major problem for me. One of the even bigger problems with it is the utter lack of shorter, more manageable scenarios for getting one's feet wet. I definitely give you credit for paying attention!

In essence, I asked the forum members what they would like to have for learning the game, and then I created it.

Good! Oddly enough I didn't originally think of WiF as a monster game. I usually think of things like War in Europe as monster games: maps that take up the entire garage, a counter mix that you needed an entire tree to print, and so forth. I never understood how those sold and who played them. I understand why people have played WiF all these years.

[composer99]

One of the great things of MWiF is that you can't ever get the rules wrong.

Playing sensibly, of course, is a lot of work.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

As the designer, project manager, and lead programmer, you might consider me biased in my opinion.[:D]

You can be forgiven some justified pride. I've always recognized that converting WiF is a herculean task. Just how many years did it actually take?

[/quote]

About 10 years of programing effort [X(]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

As the designer, project manager, and lead programmer, you might consider me biased in my opinion.[:D]

You can be forgiven some justified pride. I've always recognized that converting WiF is a herculean task. Just how many years did it actually take?

About 10 years of programing effort [X(]
[/quote]
Chris worked on CWIF for ~7 years. I picked up his code and have worked on MWIF for 8 years, 3 months (and counting).

[composer99]

Good! Oddly enough I didn't originally think of WiF as a monster game. I usually think of things like War in Europe as monster games: maps that take up the entire garage, a counter mix that you needed an entire tree to print, and so forth. I never understood how those sold and who played them. I understand why people have played WiF all these years.

For some reason, this echoes with me: WiF has always struck me as the "beer and pretzels" game of monster Second World in War games (*): more casual, and dare I say more "newb-friendly" or even more intuitive (insofar as such a term can apply to WiF) than other games in the genre, even smaller games (I'm looking at you, The Russian Campaign).

(*) It must be said, WiF is a monster game. At a tournament setting (e.g. WiFCon) the entire 1939-1945 "Global War" game takes all week to play, usually 7 12-hour days, and you often don't get through to the bitter end.

==========

It seems to me that newer "monster" wargames are trying to make an effort to be friendlier to newer players, whether new to the game specifically, or new to the genre in general. So, for example, MWiF has reams of advice in the player's manual, video and in-game tutorials, and will probably have lots of forum help by players for players. As I recall, a relatively new game, The War: Europe 1939-1945, has multiple scenarios specifically designed to allow players the opportunity to develop mastery in a specific subsystem (while, with perhaps the exception of the simplest scenario, still being fun, more-or-less self contained mini-games in themselves).

By this I mean not friendlier in terms of sacrificing complexity or thoroughness for the sake of simplicity or ease of play (WiF still has an enormous rulebook when the rules & scenario booklet are taken together, and as I recall, TW had an annoyingly formatted rulebook with gazillions of decimal point rule references (something I am grateful WiF dispenses with), but rather designed with the intent of ensuring newer players can advance up the learning curve (relatively) gently, without burning out.

[Easo79]

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

My main complaint about Empire in Arms, and why I haven't touched in a while, is that it is virtually newb-hostile. there is little in the way of tutorial and the only way to learn a very complicated game is to get a teacher (which I can't really do). It looks like a great, intense game but I am completely lost.

Now World in Flames is a big game. There are probably bigger ones, and certainly games that are just as complex (Hearts of Iron from Paradox comes to mind as a very difficult game for a new player to grasp -- it has tutorials but they do not cover movement and combat). Now world in Flames is a somewhat more logical game, and the lack of an AI may actually be helpful in learning (it forces you to have a live opponent who, if he is more experienced, can teach you the game), but there are a lot of rules and a plethora of options. So, while I know that dedicated WiF fans who have played the game for decades will only have problems with the interfaces (and the strategic problem of rarely seeing the entire map) new players (and the game will need new players to be commercially viable) might easily get lost.

So how newb-friendly will Computer WiF be, especially at the beginning of the run?

To what others have said, I would like to add the following; being myself a complete novice (my previous experience with wargames is....RISK[8|]) I sometimes have second thoughts about learning precisely this game. But one thing that I say to myself is that the learning process itself is part of the fun: understanding why the rules are as they are and not otherwise, struggling to see what a rule tries to emulate regarding some parts of the real conflict..I think in itself could be highly rewarding, and even lead to a further comprehension of the Second World War.

[Blind Sniper]

About 10 years of programing effort

I will buy your game because you are doing an incredible job keeping high the overall quality, I'm very happy to see your game on the shelf! [:)]

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Easo79

ORIGINAL: MPHopcroft

My main complaint about Empire in Arms, and why I haven't touched in a while, is that it is virtually newb-hostile. there is little in the way of tutorial and the only way to learn a very complicated game is to get a teacher (which I can't really do). It looks like a great, intense game but I am completely lost.

Now World in Flames is a big game. There are probably bigger ones, and certainly games that are just as complex (Hearts of Iron from Paradox comes to mind as a very difficult game for a new player to grasp -- it has tutorials but they do not cover movement and combat). Now world in Flames is a somewhat more logical game, and the lack of an AI may actually be helpful in learning (it forces you to have a live opponent who, if he is more experienced, can teach you the game), but there are a lot of rules and a plethora of options. So, while I know that dedicated WiF fans who have played the game for decades will only have problems with the interfaces (and the strategic problem of rarely seeing the entire map) new players (and the game will need new players to be commercially viable) might easily get lost.

So how newb-friendly will Computer WiF be, especially at the beginning of the run?

To what others have said, I would like to add the following; being myself a complete novice (my previous experience with wargames is....RISK[8|]) I sometimes have second thoughts about learning precisely this game. But one thing that I say to myself is that the learning process itself is part of the fun: understanding why the rules are as they are and not otherwise, struggling to see what a rule tries to emulate regarding some parts of the real conflict..I think in itself could be highly rewarding, and even lead to a further comprehension of the Second World War.

My question would be to you do you beat the AI in risk? [:D]

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

About 10 years of programing effort

I will buy your game because you are doing an incredible job keeping high the overall quality, I'm very happy to see your game on the shelf! [:)]

Welcome to the forums my question to you is how long should Italy remain neutral In MWIF? [&:]

Bo

[Blind Sniper]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

About 10 years of programing effort

I will buy your game because you are doing an incredible job keeping high the overall quality, I'm very happy to see your game on the shelf! [:)]

Welcome to the forums my question to you is how long should Italy remain neutral In MWIF? [&:]

Bo

Thanks Bo.
About Italy, all we need is Malta [:D]

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper



I will buy your game because you are doing an incredible job keeping high the overall quality, I'm very happy to see your game on the shelf! [:)]

Welcome to the forums my question to you is how long should Italy remain neutral In MWIF? [&:]

Bo

Thanks Bo.
About Italy, all we need is Malta [:D]

Blind sniper you cant mean this Malta can you?

I tried to take it the other day with 5 Italian infantry corps backed up naval bombardment by the battleship the BB Conte Di Cavour and the sea plane squadron the Gabbiano.

But alas I was defeated by a notional unit on Malta, oh well back to the planning table in the Italian War room. [:D]

Bo

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

About 10 years of programing effort

I will buy your game because you are doing an incredible job keeping high the overall quality, I'm very happy to see your game on the shelf! [:)]

Welcome to the forums my question to you is how long should Italy remain neutral In MWIF? [&:]

Bo

That's a difficult question to answer. I tend to get the Italians in the war fast, because the extra units can be helpful to grab French possessions before it goes Vichy. Especially French North Africa is important, since it opens the door to Gibraltar. But that comes at a risk of higher US entry...

[Eradanfaroth]

Welcome to the forums my question to you is how long should Italy remain neutral In MWIF?

Bo

My personal opinion on the answer to your question is : until the fall of France.

Because before you probably have to fight the French Navy, wich is expendable for the french player (After setting up Vichy France, his Navy is useless).
Of course, you have to confront the Royal Navy in the same time. [:'(]

After the fall of France, Germany can lend you some badly needed ressources or even lend-lease units.

You have an opportunity to strike in Egypt, especially if you have prepared for this. England is alone in the war for a while and have a difficult time to defend against all threats (convoy war, strategic bombing, possible invasion etc.).

You have a chance to control some parts of Mediterranée, because the Royal Navy is under pressure.

The trick is that Italy could be a great help to Germany but can't do anything alone. [:(]

A gambit for experienced or adventurous italian players is to enter the war just before the fall of France.
The possible benefits are :

Attempting a surprise attack on a undergarrisonad Gibraltar, with the effect of the surprise impulse.

Grab some french territories before Vichy France (not sure about that, must have to check to political rules about Vichy France, because perhaps they have changed).

Some other high risk/high yield ideas, it's up to each player.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Blind Sniper

About 10 years of programing effort

I will buy your game because you are doing an incredible job keeping high the overall quality, I'm very happy to see your game on the shelf! [:)]

Welcome to the forums my question to you is how long should Italy remain neutral In MWIF? [&:]

Bo

warspite1

...and one of the reasons WIF is such a brilliant game? There is no "Should". The replayability (did I just make that word up?) of this game infinite because there is no right or wrong way - just different ways to try and unbalance your opponent [:)]

[Centuur]

If Gibraltar is ungarrisoned, always DoW the CW with Italy at the first possibility, take a combined action and grab it immediately. An undergarrisoned Gibraltar would depend on the odds appearing. If they give the Italians a 50% or more chanche to grab the hex, go for it and don't hesitate. High risk with possible high gains... Aligning the Spanish by Italy is a devastating blow for France. forget about US entry or the French fleet if the Italians can grab Gibraltar...

[Blind Sniper]

Uhm...I guess that in this game the difference between a newbie and a veteran player is very high! No match I would say.