Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
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- goodwoodrw
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Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
If the British had a competent general at Singapore. If the British plan of defence was around the southern tip of Malaya not scattered all over the peninsula. What do you would be generals think?
Formerly Goodwood
RE: Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
I say "NO." Perhaps I am mistaken but when I used to read books, I thought there was a general awareness that the British knew they had a paper army at Singapore. England had limited worldwide resources and Singapore was considered 'less vital' then the other holdings (Egypt, Malta, Gibraltar, and Greece).
I also thought that what was key is that England NOT let Australia know that England was consciously 'taking a zero' on Singapore and therefore England was promoting the illusion that the British force at Singapore was POWERFUL and its loss was a SHOCKER to the crown. Where in reality, it was all a political ploy to prevent Australia from withdrawing its support of England in a European war and focusing Australia's economic and military resources to the defense of its own country against the real threat - Japan.
I want to re-iterate that I am aware I could be totally wrong
I also thought that what was key is that England NOT let Australia know that England was consciously 'taking a zero' on Singapore and therefore England was promoting the illusion that the British force at Singapore was POWERFUL and its loss was a SHOCKER to the crown. Where in reality, it was all a political ploy to prevent Australia from withdrawing its support of England in a European war and focusing Australia's economic and military resources to the defense of its own country against the real threat - Japan.
I want to re-iterate that I am aware I could be totally wrong
RE: Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
Doubtful, not so much because of the general in charge, but the fact that Singapore could have been cut off from resupply. Even if Singapore held, the DEI were far too vulnerable and would have fallen. At that point it would only have been a matter of time before Singapore fell.
The simple fact of the matter is that none of the Allies in the Pacific theatre were ready to go to war on Dec 8, 1941. Most assets had been allocated to the European theatre of operations.
The simple fact of the matter is that none of the Allies in the Pacific theatre were ready to go to war on Dec 8, 1941. Most assets had been allocated to the European theatre of operations.
Distant Worlds Fan
'When in doubt...attack!'
'When in doubt...attack!'
RE: Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
I'm sure they wished they had made a stand not long after surrendering.
RE: Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
ORIGINAL: BASB
If the British had a competent general at Singapore. If the British plan of defence was around the southern tip of Malaya not scattered all over the peninsula. What do you would be generals think?
No. Percival was not incompetent. He was a very average general, given a shitty posting and insufficient forces to hold it.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
RE: Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
He was not incompetent. Singapore was doomed from the start.
Sure they could have drug out the fight a little more, but at a huge cost.
No-one could have forseen what would happen with the prisoners.
(My wifes paternal grandfather was one of them. He NEVER talked about it with anyone who wasn't there.)
RE: Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
The British had no extra forces to spare, given their commitments in the Mediterranean, and they also thought they could deter the Japanese from going to war by having Force Z to wave the flag. Unfortunately, the Japs had already decided to go to war by then, making deterrence rather useless.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
RE: Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
They had been pretty much backed into a corner by the trade embargo.
It was climb down in a humiliating manner, or go to war. Given the psyche of the leaders, it was easier to go to war, than to back down.
The risks of the embargo were known at the time at least in some circles.
It was climb down in a humiliating manner, or go to war. Given the psyche of the leaders, it was easier to go to war, than to back down.
The risks of the embargo were known at the time at least in some circles.
- goodwoodrw
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RE: Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
Supply was an issue however the allied forces out numbered the Japanese 2 to 1 85000 to 35000, and Churchill did send around 18000 reinforcements. I'm not sure if the total force included the 18000. Some of these troops were poorly trained, but the British had some very good Regiments there. The Aus 8th Division was of reasonable quality as well. A reasonable delay may have changed the thinking of both sides. A reasonable resistance may redirected valuable assets from other areas such as the Philippines and perhaps altered the results there. I don't know, but you never no what an extra month would have done to the strategic thinking of IJA
Formerly Goodwood
RE: Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
I would echo previous comments. There is nothing to suggest Percival was an incompetent.
Would the outcome have affected the course of the war? What is impossible to tell is what would have been the knock-on effect of any sizeable delay in securing Malaya/Singapore on the invasion of the NEI and Burma (I suspect there would have been no effect in the Philippines?).
Battles and whole campaigns can hinge on the smallest of things. What would a delay in the Japanese timetable and pressure from Tokyo do to Yamashita? We know that the Japanese were almost out of supplies when they took Singapore so let’s say the British were able to keep the enemy at bay for longer, using a better defensive strategy, how would the Japanese have reacted? We know from Guadalcanal that their response was likely to be more of the same (even if something wasn’t working in order for the commander to save face). Japanese losses could have been very much higher as a result.
But apart from the Japanese, what would early repulse of Japanese attacks have done for the defenders? The British would also have had the 18th Division to bolster the defensive lines instead of falling almost directly into Japanese hands as actually happened. With a defensive based further south there is less chance of the air force being wiped out (although that %^&* Patrick Heenan may have still been able to have brought the Japanese air force down on the airfields no matter where the aircraft were based).
One can only guess what might have been….what if Churchill sent even a few tanks and Hurricanes to Singapore and not to Russia?
As for that stuff about England (????) and Australia…… best left my thoughts unsaid….
Would the outcome have affected the course of the war? What is impossible to tell is what would have been the knock-on effect of any sizeable delay in securing Malaya/Singapore on the invasion of the NEI and Burma (I suspect there would have been no effect in the Philippines?).
Battles and whole campaigns can hinge on the smallest of things. What would a delay in the Japanese timetable and pressure from Tokyo do to Yamashita? We know that the Japanese were almost out of supplies when they took Singapore so let’s say the British were able to keep the enemy at bay for longer, using a better defensive strategy, how would the Japanese have reacted? We know from Guadalcanal that their response was likely to be more of the same (even if something wasn’t working in order for the commander to save face). Japanese losses could have been very much higher as a result.
But apart from the Japanese, what would early repulse of Japanese attacks have done for the defenders? The British would also have had the 18th Division to bolster the defensive lines instead of falling almost directly into Japanese hands as actually happened. With a defensive based further south there is less chance of the air force being wiped out (although that %^&* Patrick Heenan may have still been able to have brought the Japanese air force down on the airfields no matter where the aircraft were based).
One can only guess what might have been….what if Churchill sent even a few tanks and Hurricanes to Singapore and not to Russia?
As for that stuff about England (????) and Australia…… best left my thoughts unsaid….
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
- Capt. Harlock
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RE: Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
There is nothing to suggest Percival was an incompetent.
I think there is just one point on which Percival could have done much better, and that is the building of north-facing fortifications. Granted, the defences around Singapore were originally designed to repel amphibious assault from the ocean, not the short hop from the Malay peninsula. But after Dec. 8 it became obvious where the attack was going to come from, and some improvised fortifications could have been erected.
Ultimately, Singapore would have fallen by starvation: there was a large civilian population there that needed to be fed. But, IMHO, with a bit more work it could have held out for another month, tying down Japanese resources needed elsewhere. And -- just maybe -- that would have allowed the Allies to keep the Burma Road open, which would have had major effects in China.
Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?
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--Victor Hugo
RE: Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
Any military wish to build fortifications in Singapore before the Japs came near was also hamstrung by the civilian authorities. "You can't dig trenches on our cricket field, are you mad?".
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
RE: Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock
I think there is just one point on which Percival could have done much better, and that is the building of north-facing fortifications. Granted, the defences around Singapore were originally designed to repel amphibious assault from the ocean ...
Had a game where the IJ AI tried to reinforce their stalled northern attack by an amphib landing, but the TF was mauled by Sing's shore batteries; Singapore eventually fell, but at a great price to the virtual invaders in both time and materiel lost.
Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.[center][/center]
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[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
RE: Could the Pacific War taken a different Course If...
I look forward to modelling this in World in Flames [:)]
"Righto chaps...it turns out the Japanese can actually shoot straight and their aeroplanes aren't made of bamboo and rice-paper. I'm not sure how we got that impression given their defeat of the Russians in 1905, the conquest of Manchuria and lots of China and various other victories but it's a bit late to quibble about that now because there's a horde of the little blighters swarming down from the north and we appear to be slightly cut off."
Cheers, Neilster
"Righto chaps...it turns out the Japanese can actually shoot straight and their aeroplanes aren't made of bamboo and rice-paper. I'm not sure how we got that impression given their defeat of the Russians in 1905, the conquest of Manchuria and lots of China and various other victories but it's a bit late to quibble about that now because there's a horde of the little blighters swarming down from the north and we appear to be slightly cut off."
Cheers, Neilster
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Cheers, Neilster