Airplanes

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Symon
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Airplanes

Post by Symon »

Wandering into the world of airplanes is a totally new experience for me. But I received a gift of the original calculation parametrics from a friendly Air Team soul. So off I go through airplane life, fat, drunk, and stupid, with my programs in one hand and a stack of TAIC reports in the other.

Just doing Fighters and FBs because they are the ones mainly impacted by the a2a routines. Data is collected at specific power ranges and at a plane’s several critical altitudes (speed, climb, power). All data is normalized, in order to be self-consistent and rationally related across nations and years.

Several IJ planes will show up much more nicely, several Allied planes will have their beards trimmed, some planes will perform well at higher altitudes, some less so, some planes can operate at bomber altitudes, most can’t.

Oh, yummy! Franks and Georges, flown by good pilots, against Hellcats and Corsairs in a later war scenario? Woof !!! Fun stuff.

[ed] but who knows who can effectively oppose the high altitude 4E bomber stream? The Shadow knows, muaha ha ha ha haaa!

Ciao, JWE
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MateDow
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RE: Airplanes

Post by MateDow »

I am looking forward to seeing the data.

Are the calculations something that will be shareable?
GaryChildress
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RE: Airplanes

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: MateDow

I am looking forward to seeing the data.

Are the calculations something that will be shareable?

I second that! Any chance more of the internal workings of the AE system might be made public so modders might have an easier time of it?

Thanks.
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HerzKaraya
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RE: Airplanes

Post by HerzKaraya »

I would like to see those formulas too! Or at least how much "weight" is given to each parameter (Wingloading, HP/Weight ratio, rate of turn, rate of roll, turn radius, speed, acceleration, dive speed,...) when assigning a MVR value.
And then how important is Max Speed in relation to MVR when pitching to fighters against each other? Or does the better pilot choose which attribute he is going to use against the other? (Slashing attack or tight dogficht)

Thanks
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Terminus
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RE: Airplanes

Post by Terminus »

Pretty sure we're not allowed to make those calculations public.
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Symon
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RE: Airplanes

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Pretty sure we're not allowed to make those calculations public.
Absolutely right. If it belongs to Matrix or Henderson Field Designs the algorithms are under non-disclosure.

Besides, most of the new stuff is just ordinary, everyday data. Speed - self explanatory, Ceiling - we're using operational ceiling (the 1000 fpm limit) as opposed to max, Cd0 to get mo' bedda values for FB configurations, that sort of thing. Oh, and climb rates - we're using a weighted average of CL, max, and critical altitude.
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fcharton
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RE: Airplanes

Post by fcharton »

But could some agregated statistics per model be made public? Averages would be fine, and not disclose the algorithms (and a variance or two would soothe the more suspicious of us).

Francois
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Symon
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RE: Airplanes

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: fcharton
But could some agregated statistics per model be made public? Averages would be fine, and not disclose the algorithms (and a variance or two would soothe the more suspicious of us).

Francois
All the individual data things will be fully documented [:)]
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PaxMondo
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RE: Airplanes

Post by PaxMondo »

Pax
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Symon
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RE: Airplanes

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
LOL. But oh! no, no, no. Not tweaking anything that has to do with the calculations. We were always hesitant about approaching airplane data because we were not familiar with how things propagated. Having the programs just makes sure we don't do something with unintended consequences. Evaluating the new stuff shows that the Air Team was thinking in exactly the same conceptual space that we are, so no need to tweak their results. Verification only; Air Team was way smarter than us and it shows [8D].

If the Babes Team comes up with a new calculation algorithm, we'll talk about it. But Matrix/HFD algorithms are private. We think the Air Team's algorithms are righteous. So no disclosure; instead a poop load of new data that works within the game concept [:D]

Ciao. JWE
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GaryChildress
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RE: Airplanes

Post by GaryChildress »

ORIGINAL: fcharton

But could some agregated statistics per model be made public? Averages would be fine, and not disclose the algorithms (and a variance or two would soothe the more suspicious of us).

Francois

I don't think the intent should be to "soothe suspicions" or otherwise scrutinize or pick apart the methodology used by the AE team (if that's what you mean). That will only devolve into another "this game is broken" thread and would be immensely counter productive to the game and the modding community.

The point is to make modding even POSSIBLE. It is nigh impossible to mod something that we don't understand except by just guessing numbers or pulling them out of our posteriors. Gamers want mods that work. What modders need are solid methods to come up with new stats in the editor. Right now I don't think the majority of modders are getting what they need to work on their mods. Looking in the editor manual and reading that "device accuracy is the accuracy of the device" helps no one. Modders need formulas or means to producing stats that work in the game.

This is what I think would be a useful entry in the editor manual for something like accuracy for instance:
"Accuracy is a number between X and Y, the higher the number the more accurate the weapon. Factors that affect accuracy are P, Q, and R. In order to calculate accuracy of a new device you would multiply P by Q and divide by R (or whatever the formula is)."

This would really help tell us four things: 1. What the highest and lowest possible values are, 2. what higher and lower values mean in game terms, 3. what factors affect accuracy, and 4. how to arrive at numbers on our own that are compatible with the game. I don't see the crime or danger in Matrix or Henderson Field publishing the formulas or methods used to arrive at a number in the editor. It would help modders thrive and that in turn would help the game thrive.

EDIT: Snipped out the comments caused by frustration. Don't think it helps the conversation.
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RE: Airplanes

Post by Commander Stormwolf »

on the a2a model:

1) the co-ordination penalties and abolition of the WITP uber-cap
are a BIG step to improving the a2a model

2) the altitude effects and MVR penalties are wrong and are the core
of why the a2a model is currently broken

3) aerial armament values need to be re-evaluated (particularly accuracy)
recommend my formula

accuracy = (muzzle velocity/3000) x (ammo/500)
______________ ______________


presently A6M2 and N1K2-J have almost the same accuracy
60 rounds vs 200 rds (1970 ft/s vs 2460 ft/s)

4) night defensive gunner accuracy reduced significantly
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Symon
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RE: Airplanes

Post by Symon »

You stinkimg piece of wet feces. Leave and do not ever come back.
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MateDow
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RE: Airplanes

Post by MateDow »

I was more thinking that, like the values for accuracy and such with guns, we'd have access to something that would allow us to put our own planes in. Something like for wing load X it will give a maneuver rating of Y. I'm sure that there would be more variables. I'm really not interested in how the game uses that number to determine combat, just how to give it numbers that will be used properly.

Hopefully that makes sense.
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RE: Airplanes

Post by GaryChildress »

I suppose "internal workings" was a bad way of me putting it. Not really what I meant either. It sounds like we are looking for the same thing MateDow, just a way of introducing new devices, planes, etc into the editor and have it actually work correctly in game. Right now I'm having a devil of a time trying to figure out how to add the German Pocket BBs for my whacked out mod. They're a lot UNLIKE anything currently in the game. So I'm not sure what values to assign them. Wish I had some sort of simple formula for giving them compatible stats for maneuver. [:(]
Dili
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RE: Airplanes

Post by Dili »

Energy fight should only work one level/altitude band down . High altitude fighters going to low level would always under perform.

Bombers should have also altitude bands, this specially to affect their range.
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Terminus
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RE: Airplanes

Post by Terminus »

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I suppose "internal workings" was a bad way of me putting it. Not really what I meant either. It sounds like we are looking for the same thing MateDow, just a way of introducing new devices, planes, etc into the editor and have it actually work correctly in game. Right now I'm having a devil of a time trying to figure out how to add the German Pocket BBs for my whacked out mod. They're a lot UNLIKE anything currently in the game. So I'm not sure what values to assign them. Wish I had some sort of simple formula for giving them compatible stats for maneuver. [:(]

They're not that unusual. Ship maneuverability is a function of tonnage, ship length and speed. Find a warship in the DB that's close enough and then fudge some stats from that. That's what I do.
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Dili
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RE: Airplanes

Post by Dili »

It is also a a function of steering gear including its area and propellers configuration and propulsion control, for example Bismarck was unable to maneuver with propellers only.
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Symon
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RE: Airplanes

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: MateDow
I was more thinking that, like the values for accuracy and such with guns, we'd have access to something that would allow us to put our own planes in. Something like for wing load X it will give a maneuver rating of Y. I'm sure that there would be more variables. I'm really not interested in how the game uses that number to determine combat, just how to give it numbers that will be used properly.

Hopefully that makes sense.
It does make sense. Without giving anything away, it's pretty clear that maneuverability is a function of 'loopability' and acceleration, in turn, a function of wing loading and HP/wt ratio. That's because it was, to the first order, and the air guys weren't dumb. So come up with your own calculations of WL and HP/Wt and get a number. Then apply that number to the game number and find your normalization factor (what you have to multiply your number by in order to get the game number). Rinse and repeat a couple times to make sure you got a good normalization factor (there are outliers that will catch you up). Then do the same calcs for your new airplane, apply the normalization factor and you should be in the ball park.

It doesn't take much inspection to figure out the maneuver band cut-offs. Figured these out long before I got the programs. It's a simple cut-off at the HP-RoC critical altitude. If you want to get totally gnarly, find your data for each of the maneuver bands [8D]

Some things are very important. You must make sure that your weight numbers are consistent, in order to ensure consistency between and among nations. Makes no sense to calc planes with different empty, loaded, operational, max takeoff weights. Babes is using a "clean", loaded standard. Also your HP needs to be unified. Do you use SL, MilP Max, MilP at Crit, WEP Max, WEP at Crit? It must be consistent. Babes uses MilP at Crit because that plays into the maneuver band cut-offs and represents the most general condition. So use that as your HP for HP/Wt calcs.

Takes some work, but it's well worth it. Generates a better understanding of airplane performance characterists while doing the research and figuring out what's up with low and high altitude performance.

Ciao. John
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Symon
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RE: Airplanes

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: Terminus
ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
I suppose "internal workings" was a bad way of me putting it. Not really what I meant either. It sounds like we are looking for the same thing MateDow, just a way of introducing new devices, planes, etc into the editor and have it actually work correctly in game. Right now I'm having a devil of a time trying to figure out how to add the German Pocket BBs for my whacked out mod. They're a lot UNLIKE anything currently in the game. So I'm not sure what values to assign them. Wish I had some sort of simple formula for giving them compatible stats for maneuver. [:(]
They're not that unusual. Ship maneuverability is a function of tonnage, ship length and speed. Find a warship in the DB that's close enough and then fudge some stats from that. That's what I do.
They are not unusal at all, in fact they are pretty mundane. Pocket BBs were pretty pathetic in most all respects. Make a list of Hp/Dspl and Sp/L for ship types (BB, BC, CA, etc..); plot them. Find yours (it's not all that good, you will find it among the CAs). Plot it and find your number. Enter the number. Different ship types have different Constants that multiply the H/D and S/L values. This is because of the maneuver tests being dependant on size and hull form factor. That's how it's done.
{ed] BtW that's a bit OT for an airplane thread.

Ciao. JWE
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