Scenario 002 Hakko Ichiu question
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- MrBlizzard
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- Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:34 pm
- Location: Italy
Scenario 002 Hakko Ichiu question
What are the differences with scenario 001?
Is anywhere available a list with all the added units and other differences ?
Edit:
So far I've seen for Japan:
1) ground reinforcements: 4 new brigades + 21th army HQ
2) planes pool: all pool increased (some 200-300? More planes more)
3) ships reinf: 3 more CL, many new DD (20??), CV Shinano arrives in a better class (no BB transformed)
4) pilot pools: maybe 1500 more replacements, new pilots added monthly doubled
5) industry: bigger stocks of everything, supplies, oil, fuel resources, more shipyards, more air factories and R&d slots
6) else???
Is anywhere available a list with all the added units and other differences ?
Edit:
So far I've seen for Japan:
1) ground reinforcements: 4 new brigades + 21th army HQ
2) planes pool: all pool increased (some 200-300? More planes more)
3) ships reinf: 3 more CL, many new DD (20??), CV Shinano arrives in a better class (no BB transformed)
4) pilot pools: maybe 1500 more replacements, new pilots added monthly doubled
5) industry: bigger stocks of everything, supplies, oil, fuel resources, more shipyards, more air factories and R&d slots
6) else???
Blizzard
RE: Scenario 002 Hakko Ichiu question
pilot pools are the biggest item for IJ players .. you need to plan that additional monthly HI expenditure carefully ...
Pax
RE: Scenario 002 Hakko Ichiu question
Actually if I recall it is more like three or four extra divisions rather than brigades at start.
Basically you have it right. However, the big picture is that the big advantage comes to Japan in a front loaded fashion. In that a good Japanese player can ramp up to full bore production in a relatively quick manner-which allows the production of prodigious amounts of aircraft the first year and the rapid advancement of ships and new aircraft models. Expect to have all Japanese carriers built out by early 44 and to see all models of advanced aircraft many months before their historical dates.
But the most danger for the Allied player comes in the first months. Already at an advantage, scenario 2 allows the Japanese player to push even harder and faster in the first year with the Allies getting no extra resources to counter. It is a big advantage but by no means does not mean it unbalances the game. It just calls for some caution on the Allied side.
Basically you have it right. However, the big picture is that the big advantage comes to Japan in a front loaded fashion. In that a good Japanese player can ramp up to full bore production in a relatively quick manner-which allows the production of prodigious amounts of aircraft the first year and the rapid advancement of ships and new aircraft models. Expect to have all Japanese carriers built out by early 44 and to see all models of advanced aircraft many months before their historical dates.
But the most danger for the Allied player comes in the first months. Already at an advantage, scenario 2 allows the Japanese player to push even harder and faster in the first year with the Allies getting no extra resources to counter. It is a big advantage but by no means does not mean it unbalances the game. It just calls for some caution on the Allied side.
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Sigismund of Luxemburg
RE: Scenario 002 Hakko Ichiu question
As an allied opponent in this scenario , it's the forward deployed resources, especially FUEL at the INJ's disposal that really is devastating. In reality , the INJ had to strain just to get the KB to PH. In this scenario, it seems like they can go anywhere with everything right from the 1st day. Normally the INJ has a steamroller for the 1st six months or so. Fuel shortages MIGHT allow a Sir Robin strategy. Here, I feel like I'm being chased by by a turbocharged Maserati engine steam roller! You can't run fast enough , you have little or no opportunity to re-group or form any relatively decent group for a defensive stand.
In the original scenario Japan is always having to disengage to the HI to replenish it's KB and other big groups. Here they just pull into the nearest base and refuel. The allied player has no respite , as the Japanese just keep coming , refueling, then coming again. I'd give the INJ four more CV's just to get rid of the logistics advantage. [:(]
In the original scenario Japan is always having to disengage to the HI to replenish it's KB and other big groups. Here they just pull into the nearest base and refuel. The allied player has no respite , as the Japanese just keep coming , refueling, then coming again. I'd give the INJ four more CV's just to get rid of the logistics advantage. [:(]
RE: Scenario 002 Hakko Ichiu question
The other big factor is the level of pilot experience right out of training. In Scen 1 they come out at 28/31 Army/Navy while in Scenerio 2 it is about 10+ points higher for each. Makes a pretty good impact. Of course having to pay for that is a different issue [:D].
You are also building a LOT more ships as Japan as the extra ships you start with are not 'free'. The game assumes these ships were ready at the start of the game versus being in production like in Scenerio 1. Plus there is more in the production pipeline too, especially Merchant ships. As Japan you will never have enough Merch points unless you have a massive expansion (which is not really needed, but it is still annoying not to build them all [:)]
What's funny, I am in a Scenerio 1 game as Japan and after playing Scenerio 2, I feel like I have a massive amount of productions lol. Since my production needs are a lot less for pilots/LCUs/etc.
crsutton
I am just finishing up a Scenerio 2 as Japan (Dec '44) and will lose in January '44 with an Allied AV. Of course I could have won an AV in '43 but I pulled back on purpose to see how the late war would be. It still sucks for Japan [:(].
The issue is still the same for Japan, interdict the DEI and everything shuts down at some point. Also, it is VERY easy as Japan looking at the increased stockpiles at the start and go wild with production. In '43, I was paying 75K+ of HI just for the pilot pool. I think for a few months it was over 100K. The other factor often overlooked is the increased number of troops require an increase number of vehicles and armments. I had to increase the productuion of both of these just to try and keep up with my operational pace. Throughout the war, I had to constantly battle with having enough vehicles.
I do not turn off upgrades/replacements/etc. as I think on a global scale they should all be on as that better reflected the way it occured in the actual war. So if you turned these off, then you may not (or may) have the same issues with armements and vechicles that I did.
If Japan makes a huge effort in China and northen Oz in Scenerio 2, then it is very doable to get a Japanese AV at the start of '43 or even start '44. Unfortunately, there is not much the Allies can do to stop it due to your points above. For our game, in order to keep playing,I agreed no 'adventures' into India and to stop pushing in China once I had Sian and a land route to Indochina through China. I also agreed to pay any PPs for moving units across national borders, Manchuria to China, China to Burma, etc. But given the amount of extra troops Japan gets in Scenerio 2, not much of that was really needed [:)]
You are also building a LOT more ships as Japan as the extra ships you start with are not 'free'. The game assumes these ships were ready at the start of the game versus being in production like in Scenerio 1. Plus there is more in the production pipeline too, especially Merchant ships. As Japan you will never have enough Merch points unless you have a massive expansion (which is not really needed, but it is still annoying not to build them all [:)]
What's funny, I am in a Scenerio 1 game as Japan and after playing Scenerio 2, I feel like I have a massive amount of productions lol. Since my production needs are a lot less for pilots/LCUs/etc.
crsutton
I am just finishing up a Scenerio 2 as Japan (Dec '44) and will lose in January '44 with an Allied AV. Of course I could have won an AV in '43 but I pulled back on purpose to see how the late war would be. It still sucks for Japan [:(].
The issue is still the same for Japan, interdict the DEI and everything shuts down at some point. Also, it is VERY easy as Japan looking at the increased stockpiles at the start and go wild with production. In '43, I was paying 75K+ of HI just for the pilot pool. I think for a few months it was over 100K. The other factor often overlooked is the increased number of troops require an increase number of vehicles and armments. I had to increase the productuion of both of these just to try and keep up with my operational pace. Throughout the war, I had to constantly battle with having enough vehicles.
I do not turn off upgrades/replacements/etc. as I think on a global scale they should all be on as that better reflected the way it occured in the actual war. So if you turned these off, then you may not (or may) have the same issues with armements and vechicles that I did.
If Japan makes a huge effort in China and northen Oz in Scenerio 2, then it is very doable to get a Japanese AV at the start of '43 or even start '44. Unfortunately, there is not much the Allies can do to stop it due to your points above. For our game, in order to keep playing,I agreed no 'adventures' into India and to stop pushing in China once I had Sian and a land route to Indochina through China. I also agreed to pay any PPs for moving units across national borders, Manchuria to China, China to Burma, etc. But given the amount of extra troops Japan gets in Scenerio 2, not much of that was really needed [:)]
- Chickenboy
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RE: Scenario 002 Hakko Ichiu question
ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard
What are the differences with scenario 001?
Is anywhere available a list with all the added units and other differences ?
Edit:
So far I've seen for Japan:
1) ground reinforcements: 4 new brigades + 21th army HQ
2) planes pool: all pool increased (some 200-300? More planes more)
3) ships reinf: 3 more CL, many new DD (20??), CV Shinano arrives in a better class (no BB transformed)
4) pilot pools: maybe 1500 more replacements, new pilots added monthly doubled
5) industry: bigger stocks of everything, supplies, oil, fuel resources, more shipyards, more air factories and R&d slots
6) else???
There was a thread to this effect approximately 15 months ago that detailed the differences. From memory (and playing the IJ in a current PBEM scenario 2), here's my comments:
1. In addition to the brigades and the army HQ, the IJ receives several Guards Divisions (forward deployed at CRB with Southern HQ, so you don't have to 'buy them'). One of the Guards Divisions is a particularly nasty piece of work-an armored Division that is quite capable and well outfitted.
2. Don't recall if the planes pool is significantly affected. What Crsutton said is correct though-earlier deployment of many airframe types (Tojo IIa comes in 6/42 versus 9/42 in Scenario 1). This has the effect of accelerating research by 3-6 months on follow-on airframes in the series.
3. What you said about ship reinforcement. One of the biggest deals is that CVE come with their own organic airgroups, making them much more capable platforms. Downside: KB fighter squadrons are hard-coded to be small until mid-1942, when they expand considerably. You need to buttress them if you anticipate a serious air challenge.
4. Pilot pool: You've got more pilots "graduating" than you know what to do with. They are a real drag on monthly accumulation of HI points. This is a serious (and underrated) challenge.
5. AW1Steve is right about the pre-positioned fuel stores being responsible for an "uptempo" IJ surge in the early war.
The Japanese also get higher oil, fuel and resource stores in the home islands, making a considerable production 'safety blanket' for production.
RE: Scenario 002 Hakko Ichiu question
ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
As an allied opponent in this scenario , it's the forward deployed resources, especially FUEL at the INJ's disposal that really is devastating. In reality , the INJ had to strain just to get the KB to PH. In this scenario, it seems like they can go anywhere with everything right from the 1st day. Normally the INJ has a steamroller for the 1st six months or so. Fuel shortages MIGHT allow a Sir Robin strategy. Here, I feel like I'm being chased by by a turbocharged Maserati engine steam roller! You can't run fast enough , you have little or no opportunity to re-group or form any relatively decent group for a defensive stand.
Hello,
I can confirm this, and this is even more challenging if you´re playing your first PBEM with Scen2 als the allies, as I´m doing right now. Just to see the effects as I recognized them, I want to state:
* Much more "endeavours" with the KB in areas where you never saw them in reality (south of a line "Raoul Islands - Rarotonga" f.e.)
* much heavier impact of land-based bombers on ground forces (better-trained pilots, more bombers as I assume)
* much more of a challenge in China due to these additional guards divisions. China can get under a big threat by the japanese player.
I would suggest new players which do their first PBEM to choose scen1, until they are really confident (of of a masochist mood ) .
Cheers
Martin
Martin
- MrBlizzard
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- Location: Italy
RE: Scenario 002 Hakko Ichiu question
Thanks a lot everybody!
These are very usefull informations and also tips, moods and implications hidden in this new (for me) scenario.
I didn't suspect that Japan had so many advantages, now i believe much more than in RA mod that I played (e.g. the starting stocks of fuel, oil ecc in RA are much lower even than in scenario 1).
I missed completely that you got more than 4 guards divisions equivalent in first few months (all the 21th army).
And that all planes are available some months in advance, and other months can be gained with R&A.
And all the new ships; btw, have you got any new also at start? I've just seen as replacements those 31 more DD and 3 CL)
The first impression is that Japan has a huge boost for the first year to try to go for autovictory; this scenary must be difficult and very challenging for allied in 1942.
The only thing to match with, in the long run, seems to be the large amount of HI required for pilots training. How can you produce 75k or more HI at month only for training?? [&:]
There must be some ways to manage this issue, is it enough saving HI from the start?
Thanks again
These are very usefull informations and also tips, moods and implications hidden in this new (for me) scenario.
I didn't suspect that Japan had so many advantages, now i believe much more than in RA mod that I played (e.g. the starting stocks of fuel, oil ecc in RA are much lower even than in scenario 1).
I missed completely that you got more than 4 guards divisions equivalent in first few months (all the 21th army).
And that all planes are available some months in advance, and other months can be gained with R&A.
And all the new ships; btw, have you got any new also at start? I've just seen as replacements those 31 more DD and 3 CL)
The first impression is that Japan has a huge boost for the first year to try to go for autovictory; this scenary must be difficult and very challenging for allied in 1942.
The only thing to match with, in the long run, seems to be the large amount of HI required for pilots training. How can you produce 75k or more HI at month only for training?? [&:]
There must be some ways to manage this issue, is it enough saving HI from the start?
Thanks again
Blizzard
RE: Scenario 002 Hakko Ichiu question
Here's the thread from before. More than 15 months...
tm.asp?m=2602047
Having just started a Scen 2 game, I can say...
Advantages:
-Replacement pilot XP is average 40ish, rather than 30ish.
-I'm not sure I've got extra LCUs to start with, but there are definitely some extras in the queue. Guards Tank comes to mind.
-The additional aircraft factories mentioned by Djordje in that thread. This is a key reason why I requested Scen 2 for the first PBEM I expect to see end game with.
-I will check again later, but I'm 90% sure that Tokyo's Repair SY starts at a size large enough to do the CS to CVL, and BB, conversions.
-I appear to have several 27x Sally units in Manchuria at the start that aren't there in Scen 1.
Disadvantages:
-More pilots to train. In my game against the AI, by late-43 it was already costing me 70k HI per month to train pilots. Honestly, my second-biggest concern in the game is this (the biggest being that I'll make lots of rookie mistakes and gut my military with losses): that I'll not be able to stockpile enough HI (and Fuel/Oil by extension) because I'm spending so much on pilots.
-KB fighter/divebomber squadrons have weird sizes and you aren't able to resize them until mid-42.
On the whole it's a boost to Japan, but frontloaded. Kind of like changing the resistance settings on those adjustable weight machines that fancy gyms have.
Edit:
Starting stocks of oil/resources in Japan are ~480 days of oil, ~80 days of resources. I don't remember the fuel number off the top of my head, but it's not bad either.
tm.asp?m=2602047
Having just started a Scen 2 game, I can say...
Advantages:
-Replacement pilot XP is average 40ish, rather than 30ish.
-I'm not sure I've got extra LCUs to start with, but there are definitely some extras in the queue. Guards Tank comes to mind.
-The additional aircraft factories mentioned by Djordje in that thread. This is a key reason why I requested Scen 2 for the first PBEM I expect to see end game with.
-I will check again later, but I'm 90% sure that Tokyo's Repair SY starts at a size large enough to do the CS to CVL, and BB, conversions.
-I appear to have several 27x Sally units in Manchuria at the start that aren't there in Scen 1.
Disadvantages:
-More pilots to train. In my game against the AI, by late-43 it was already costing me 70k HI per month to train pilots. Honestly, my second-biggest concern in the game is this (the biggest being that I'll make lots of rookie mistakes and gut my military with losses): that I'll not be able to stockpile enough HI (and Fuel/Oil by extension) because I'm spending so much on pilots.
-KB fighter/divebomber squadrons have weird sizes and you aren't able to resize them until mid-42.
On the whole it's a boost to Japan, but frontloaded. Kind of like changing the resistance settings on those adjustable weight machines that fancy gyms have.
Edit:
Starting stocks of oil/resources in Japan are ~480 days of oil, ~80 days of resources. I don't remember the fuel number off the top of my head, but it's not bad either.
RE: Scenario 002 Hakko Ichiu question
ORIGINAL: Numdydar
crsutton
I am just finishing up a Scenerio 2 as Japan (Dec '44) and will lose in January '44 with an Allied AV. Of course I could have won an AV in '43 but I pulled back on purpose to see how the late war would be. It still sucks for Japan [:(].
The issue is still the same for Japan, interdict the DEI and everything shuts down at some point. Also, it is VERY easy as Japan looking at the increased stockpiles at the start and go wild with production. In '43, I was paying 75K+ of HI just for the pilot pool. I think for a few months it was over 100K. The other factor often overlooked is the increased number of troops require an increase number of vehicles and armments. I had to increase the productuion of both of these just to try and keep up with my operational pace. Throughout the war, I had to constantly battle with having enough vehicles.
I do not turn off upgrades/replacements/etc. as I think on a global scale they should all be on as that better reflected the way it occured in the actual war. So if you turned these off, then you may not (or may) have the same issues with armements and vechicles that I did.
100% agreed.
I am in 6'45 of a PBEM with Crsutton. Still crawling but those are the last days of the Empire.
Ross, this is a nice summary of why and how I lost the game already. [:D]
The giant pilot's pool sucks the stockpiled HIPts.
Actually, I think there's some kind of mistake made in basic calculations.
I've got thousands (and I mean it thousands!) of free pilots, but they're not used.
Every month my industry sucked more than 100k of HIPts until in 9-10'44 the pool is empty.
But... and it's an interesting "but"...
1. If you have 0 HIPts and there's a new month, the HIPts cannot go below 0.
2. With some patch in the way, there's a way now to lower the pilot's training 100k sucks every month. What to do?
Release pilots from the biggest available squadron (send them to reserve), draw pilots from the pool of trained pilots (draw from replacement), send them to reserve, repeat till the replacement pool is empty.
When the Replacement pool is empty (red) new pilots are taken from schools (novices in the training). And the less pilots in schools, the less it costs.
Very awkward, very tiring, probably a way to get a real mess in reserve pool,
but it's the only way to lower the weirdly big suck of the HIPts that kills the game.
Pity I figured it out so late. [:(]
Przy lackim orle, przy koniu Kiejstuta Archanioł Rusi na proporcach błysł
RE: Scenario 002 Hakko Ichiu question
ORIGINAL: viberpol
ORIGINAL: Numdydar
crsutton
I am just finishing up a Scenerio 2 as Japan (Dec '44) and will lose in January '44 with an Allied AV. Of course I could have won an AV in '43 but I pulled back on purpose to see how the late war would be. It still sucks for Japan [:(].
The issue is still the same for Japan, interdict the DEI and everything shuts down at some point. Also, it is VERY easy as Japan looking at the increased stockpiles at the start and go wild with production. In '43, I was paying 75K+ of HI just for the pilot pool. I think for a few months it was over 100K. The other factor often overlooked is the increased number of troops require an increase number of vehicles and armments. I had to increase the productuion of both of these just to try and keep up with my operational pace. Throughout the war, I had to constantly battle with having enough vehicles.
I do not turn off upgrades/replacements/etc. as I think on a global scale they should all be on as that better reflected the way it occured in the actual war. So if you turned these off, then you may not (or may) have the same issues with armements and vechicles that I did.
100% agreed.
I am in 6'45 of a PBEM with Crsutton. Still crawling but those are the last days of the Empire.
Ross, this is a nice summary of why and how I lost the game already. [:D]
The giant pilot's pool sucks the stockpiled HIPts.
Actually, I think there's some kind of mistake made in basic calculations.
I've got thousands (and I mean it thousands!) of free pilots, but they're not used.
Every month my industry sucked more than 100k of HIPts until in 9-10'44 the pool is empty.
But... and it's an interesting "but"...
1. If you have 0 HIPts and there's a new month, the HIPts cannot go below 0.
2. With some patch in the way, there's a way now to lower the pilot's training 100k sucks every month. What to do?
Release pilots from the biggest available squadron (send them to reserve), draw pilots from the pool of trained pilots (draw from replacement), send them to reserve, repeat till the replacement pool is empty.
When the Replacement pool is empty (red) new pilots are taken from schools (novices in the training). And the less pilots in schools, the less it costs.
Very awkward, very tiring, probably a way to get a real mess in reserve pool,
but it's the only way to lower the weirdly big suck of the HIPts that kills the game.
Pity I figured it out so late. [:(]
I always wondered if that actually worked. Chewing through the replacement pool is such a chore, though. Especially if you haven't suffered much for losses.