not impressed by shadows

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battleground
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not impressed by shadows

Post by battleground »

just upgraded to Legends a week ago and shadows today. must say I am not impressed much. The AI
appears squirly since 'Return of..'. Fleets mostly sit at home world endlessly upgrading and I imagine touching up paintjobs. Even at war and with systems filled with pirates they seldom leave
the homesystem. Unlike 'Return of..' the new AIs since Legends offers no suggestions on raids or attacks on enemies. Like watching the Italian battle fleet in WW2 (joking). Massive requests for new ships up to the maximum amount of money I have. Pirates appear overpowered in the game (so I understart them now in the setup). The AI support for the player is almost non-
existant. Prewarp game can have you building capital ships before you even leave the system with
new warp. Very little 'Wonder' in the universe. The AI in 'Return of..' appears much more fun
to start a new empire with. Just not impressed.
mSterian
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by mSterian »

You might need to fiddle around with the settings when creating a new game.
If you're constantly retrofitting your ships, try setting the Research Cost higher so you don't advance too quickly.

Enable "Fleet Postures" with the button at the minimap. It will show you what regions are set to be defended by fleets and which to be attacked by fleets.

After starting a new game, always go to the Policies Screen, and load the policy for your race. The game doesn't seem to load it automatically.

Check your automation options. On the left enable them all. On the right, set all of them to "Suggest...".

If pirates seem overpowered, also check the Pirate Strength option when creating a new game.

As for the capital ships before Warp drives, you might have chosen Prewarp, but you then selected "Tech Level" very high. Don't do that :)
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Icemania
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by Icemania »

Suggestions from the AI really do nothing more than help introduce the game to new players. Ignore them and play in manual with all suggestions off. It's very possible to play in a way where fleets spend almost all of their time on the offensive etc.

Shadows has made the game a little more difficult with the new settings and Shadows Age. There is no way I'd go back to a Legends game.

Pirates are not overpowered, change the settings to suit yourself, but Many Nearby Strong Pirates is not at all difficult to deal with once you know the game. Plenty of threads around discussing how to deal with it if you are struggling.


dostillevi
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by dostillevi »

I agree that if you're willing to play around with the game settings you'll find you can address every one of these issues and find there's a fun game here.

That said, my only real remaining issue with Distant Worlds is that of information management.. there is just so much information being presented to the player in a larger game that it is very difficult to even notice when critical information is displayed. I'd love to see all kinds of filters and different data presentations all over the place, with much greater control over what sort of information is presented to the player and when. Also certain behaviors could be altered to reduce player annoyance, like the half dozen exploration ships that always seem to end up yoyoing between a planet with an ardilus and the nearby space they escape to, but not before sending up an alert that they're under attack every few minutes. Giant space creature noted, please move on...
mSterian
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by mSterian »

Well, Icemania, the thing with the AI suggestions is that sometimes it does the math for you. Which is tedious for any player. I like planing and stuff, but I would like a way to input my plan and the AI to calculate my chances.

When playing of manual you sometimes need to waste some time doing the math, adding up firepower and trying to figure out what tech they got and stuff. This isn't appealing to every player.
So an AI that would actually make good suggestions would be pleasant.

Besides, the AI that give you suggestions is the same AI that controls the enemies. Wouldn't you like the enemies to be a bit smarter too?
mSterian
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by mSterian »

ORIGINAL: dostillevi

That said, my only real remaining issue with Distant Worlds is that of information management.. there is just so much information being presented to the player in a larger game that it is very difficult to even notice when critical information is displayed. I'd love to see all kinds of filters and different data presentations all over the place, with much greater control over what sort of information is presented to the player and when. Also certain behaviors could be altered to reduce player annoyance, like the half dozen exploration ships that always seem to end up yoyoing between a planet with an ardilus and the nearby space they escape to, but not before sending up an alert that they're under attack every few minutes. Giant space creature noted, please move on...

THIS ^

I totally support this. More frames with customizable information please.
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Icemania
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by Icemania »

I agree on the AI mSterian as I've said many times here it could use vast improvements.

My point to battlegroundvehicles is to try more on manual as there are plenty of us who have fun this way. I hardly ever need to do any maths on full manual. Probably the most tedious aspect to me is using Explorers "move to" command particularly with a large exploration fleet and a large galaxy.

That said I also agree that for some manual maybe tedious. All I can suggest here is highlighting specific issues that are considered tedious to see if there are suggestions around that can help make it more fun. I've certainly changed the way I play on manual a lot over the games.

King Doom
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by King Doom »

The single biggest problem with shadows for me is that apparently it was decided that building a space empire is no longer allowed. I'm playing the way I always play and I'm getting the YOU HAVE NO RESOURCES message quite literally six times a second DESPITE loosing the will to even try and play properly anymore after the ten thousands time I saw it and covering a third of the map in mining stations and freighters.

The worst part? the single worst part? I can't even turn off that sodding message without disabling all of them!
battleground
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by battleground »

I fully understand I can manually control a lot but having the AI much more efficient in "Return of.." made automating fleet elements much
easier, especially when your empire becomes larger. Right now I have fleets, for no reason, moving to uncolonized stars and crusing around the star there (evidently getting a tan) then returning to refuel at home. Pirate raids are ignored and fleets do not respond to
them or to invasions by Pirates. The AI is meant to assist you in running your empire and did so in "Return of.." but much less in Legends and very much less in Shadows. I have been playing computer games back to the early Avalon Hill and SSI (remember Imperium Galactium?). I don't care to manually handle and order every ship/fleet/planet which is why the game has so many AI assists built in but
they are seriously borked since Legends. I have reset the startup a number of times with pretty much the same results. Pirates are cool
but I bought Shadows for the new techs and possibilities. Wonders are still limited and dull. Patrol missions are few and far between,
If you do them yourself you have to constantly go back and reissue orders or the Patrol order will end and the fleet/ships will just hang
about. There is much good about this game (about the most detailed merchant system) but a lot is IMHO borked in a way that really holds back having fun playing this now.
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Icemania
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by Icemania »

Fair enough, if I restricted myself to play the game primarily with automation / suggestions, I would definitely find it frustrating.

You may want to consider giving it a try though.

Micromanaging
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Icemania
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by Icemania »

ORIGINAL: King Doom
The single biggest problem with shadows for me is that apparently it was decided that building a space empire is no longer allowed. I'm playing the way I always play and I'm getting the YOU HAVE NO RESOURCES message quite literally six times a second DESPITE loosing the will to even try and play properly anymore after the ten thousands time I saw it and covering a third of the map in mining stations and freighters.

The worst part? the single worst part? I can't even turn off that sodding message without disabling all of them!
I'm not quite so animated about it but I certainly agree it should be changed.
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Icemania
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by Icemania »

ORIGINAL: dostillevi
That said, my only real remaining issue with Distant Worlds is that of information management.. there is just so much information being presented to the player in a larger game that it is very difficult to even notice when critical information is displayed. I'd love to see all kinds of filters and different data presentations all over the place, with much greater control over what sort of information is presented to the player and when. Also certain behaviors could be altered to reduce player annoyance, like the half dozen exploration ships that always seem to end up yoyoing between a planet with an ardilus and the nearby space they escape to, but not before sending up an alert that they're under attack every few minutes. Giant space creature noted, please move on...
While I agree this could be improved, for me the top issues are the AI, the private sector, improving mechanics particularly removing exploits, and better explanations for those mechanics.
solops
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by solops »

Shadows is indeed underwhelming, especially the AI. I have played all of the DW titles to death since the original came out and there have been a lot of improvements, but this was not so great, other than bug squashing. Whatever improvements were made were more than offset by the terrible implementation of pirates. Lots of tough pirate fleets and bases is super, but the constant, empire wide battle against what amounts to planet based pirate guerrilla wars turns the game into a mind numbing, tedious, micromanagement nightmare. And there is no way to minimize the pirate "insurgencies" without minimizing the fun of the pirate space fleet wars.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand
dostillevi
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by dostillevi »

ORIGINAL: solops

Shadows is indeed underwhelming, especially the AI. I have played all of the DW titles to death since the original came out and there have been a lot of improvements, but this was not so great, other than bug squashing. Whatever improvements were made were more than offset by the terrible implementation of pirates. Lots of tough pirate fleets and bases is super, but the constant, empire wide battle against what amounts to planet based pirate guerrilla wars turns the game into a mind numbing, tedious, micromanagement nightmare. And there is no way to minimize the pirate "insurgencies" without minimizing the fun of the pirate space fleet wars.

I know these feels.. Every single planet I have gets a 4 ship defensive fleet, then a smaller defensive base if the pirates are still an issue. I just learn to ignore most of the combat alerts and check to be sure all my fleets are in good shape every once in a while. Usually building an defensive base puts an end to raids of opportunity, and stationing scouts with long range scanners around worlds that are frequently attacked will help you locate where they are coming from. Clear your local space and keep it clean, and the pirates won't be nearly so annoying.. until the legendary pirate fleets show up and decimate your main battle fleets...
solops
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by solops »

By "pirate insurgencies" I mean the pirates constantly building and expanding bases on all of my planets, requiring constant monitoring and ground troop management to eliminate them. Boring and tedious.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand
Mad Igor
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by Mad Igor »

no they do not.
first you LET them,then QQ that they do it.
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Icemania
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by Icemania »

solops, the concern you have raised is eminently preventable. Very early game use select protection agreements, cancelled when they leave. Get your Pirate Extermination Fleets going early, first wave destroying each base found by your Exploration Fleet, second wave using findings from Explorers with Scanners. Once you have cleared a ring around your territory it won't be long before pirate attacks are rarely strong enough to break through 3-4 ship defensive fleets stationed at each planet. Then a wider ring etc. I'll rarely have more than a handful of Pirate bases to clear all game. Once you get the hang of this the biggest problem is clearing the map of Pirates too quickly and getting bored with the quiet galaxy left behind!
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Agathosdaimon
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by Agathosdaimon »

I was getting prepared to buy this series as i would like to play some grand 4x game, but what i want is a game n a rich universe with competing enemies and nes that will be prepared to wage vast war operations against me and so which i must do likewise. But if the game is just repetitively plaing skirmises against disparate piraes, which if you destroy too soon just leaves the rest of the game world empty , that doesnt sound at all worthwhile - is this right? Or can there be variety in more to the game than just pirates?
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Darkspire
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by Darkspire »

ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

I was getting prepared to buy this series as i would like to play some grand 4x game, but what i want is a game n a rich universe with competing enemies and nes that will be prepared to wage vast war operations against me and so which i must do likewise. But if the game is just repetitively plaing skirmises against disparate piraes, which if you destroy too soon just leaves the rest of the game world empty , that doesnt sound at all worthwhile - is this right? Or can there be variety in more to the game than just pirates?

Shadows has been a real upgrade to be honest, It still takes getting used to but the warring factions are there, you just need to ensure your game setup reflects that need. Yes it does have problems, mainly in the displaying of data for the mid to late game with the amount of colonies, resources etc but I am constantly badgering to get that looked at as it has not really improved since ROTS, a few things have been done to improve that but things like extra filters etc would make things a lot easier so you can what is what quickly and easily. Pirates are great fun now and well worth ramping up in amount and strength, but that is another post.

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Icemania
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RE: not impressed by shadows

Post by Icemania »

ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon
I was getting prepared to buy this series as i would like to play some grand 4x game, but what i want is a game n a rich universe with competing enemies and nes that will be prepared to wage vast war operations against me and so which i must do likewise. But if the game is just repetitively plaing skirmises against disparate piraes, which if you destroy too soon just leaves the rest of the game world empty , that doesnt sound at all worthwhile - is this right? Or can there be variety in more to the game than just pirates?
At that stage there are still plenty of empires left.

More my point was that once you have a decent strategy in place the classic game (i.e. Legends with relatively weak Pirates) can become straight forward in time. Shadows Pirates / Prewarp added another dimension to that which I've greatly enjoyed and greatly prefer playing ... but eventually that also becomes straight forward.

However, I've had 100's of hours of fun before getting to that point, and while I'm not playing at the moment, I'm looking forward to what comes next.

Is there a repetitive element? Well yes of course, but while you are learning the game and strategies, the game will also throw some surprises your way, particularly the Pirates ... and offers a wide variety of settings to explore.

It's certainly rich and vast. In short, if you have an interest in 4X games, I would highly recommend it.
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