Of the new patch and Lvov

[mmarquo]

So....in the new setup the Rumanians are moved back from the border, thus allowing railroad escape from Lvov unless the pocket is closed...thus forcing the Axis to dash for the Rumanian border??? Oh, and this of course prematurely releases the Rumanian Front...and now the Proskurov gambit to cut the rail line is useless without also cutting the rail at the Rumanian border? This effectively forces the Lvov pocket???

What am I missing here?

Thanks

[Walloc]

I think that was the intend of the rule change.

Rasmus

[Michael T]

The lesser of two evils Mark.

[mmarquo]

So now the developers have conceded and force the Axis to do a mega-Lvov pocket????

[Michael T]

If two players wish a more 'historical' feel to the AGS area of operations all they need do is agree to a HR that no Axis units are allowed to reinforce AGS other than those that were sent that way historically. This will limit the extent and security of any pocket(s) and make a Soviet stand viable. But I doubt you will find too many Axis players willing to agree unless there is some quid pro quo. As most Russians will simply rail out vulnerable units to safety rather than fight it out. And there lies the problem.

AFAIK the mega pockets created around Lvov involve big chuncks of AGC units. Once that occurs history goes out the window.

[Michael T]

FWIW I have played multitudes of various East Front games (boardgames and PC) for near on 35 years. And in all honesty I have always sent extra units from AGC to AGS from T1 on. Its just the logical thing to do as AGC and AGN can spare the units and the historical AGS OOB struggles against a committed Soviet defence to the South. Invoking inflexible restrictive rules to prevent this is the only way to recreate the battles that actually occured in the south.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

So now the developers have conceded and force the Axis to do a mega-Lvov pocket????

No the other way around. They stopped axis units going into Rumeania on turn 2. I assume so if u try and do what mktours did, purposly not activating the frozen russian units as u cant attack out of rumeania at turn 3. Taking away one of the pincers in that move.
Also if the axis dont go strait to the rumenian border the russian can rail if not all at leased some of the units out in then not excisting pocket.

In effect forcing them to go to the rumenian border on turn 1. The "older version of the extended Lvov" sorta speak.

Rasmus

[Gabriel B.]

This is moving away from historical simulation (might as well remove rumanian cavalry completly ), the way to deal with a delayed Lvov is a soviet counterstroke to open the rail, but I have not saw anyone do that.

[timmyab]

All it does is to stop the Axis bagging the Southern front.Apart from that it makes very little difference.You only need to send one division South to cut the Southern rail line, the rest of them can still push East if you want them to with the added advantage of not needing to cut the rail at Proskurov.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

This is moving away from historical simulation (might as well remove rumanian cavalry completly ),

That horse left the barn long ago with the plain old Lvov opening.

MT, I've probably played all the games you have, and this is the only one that allows you destroy SW Front in 3 days.

It's deeply silly.

[mmarquo]

You can't cut simply cut the Proskuov rr anymore because the rr route west along the border is now open; it is plain ridiculous. If the Axis cuts the border rr no need to go for Proskurov - and this releases the Southern front....

[mmarquo]

delete

[rmonical]

I agree with MT that reinforcing AGS is a reasonable take on history. I was playing WIE with a group on a plywood table under which I slept in 1976. I was playing SPI WITE when it first game out, so I am closing in on 40 years.

I agree with Flaviusx that the turn one movement rule is as ridiculous as the blizzard rules. The only reason I dislike the blizzard more is it goes on for 13 turns.

Bracketed by these two design decisions, this magnificent game engine is no more historically realistic in 1941 than Time of Fury - which is extremely tailorable.

[GamesaurusRex]

rmonical... I too happen to have a few years of wargaming behind me (since 1965). I'll even admit that I actually own a copy of SPI WITE as well as GDW's Drang Nach Osten and Unentschieden. I have now aquired GG WITE and have noticed this issue of the LVOV pocket fantasy being debated on the forum. Although it was surely possible to assign the troops to the AGS by a wave of Hitler's hand, I am not convinced it would have accelerated the advance. A simple reading of the records of the situation in the south by examining accounts given in such books as "When Titans Clashed" by David Glantz and Jonathan House or "The Russo-German War 1941-1945" by Albert Seaton and others will reveal that the stalling effects the Germans experienced in the south was brought about by several factors that have been omitted from GG WITE.

Those factors being:

1) Unlike the northern Russian commanders, General Kirponos and his mechanised forces responded to the invasion more effectively than his counterparts in the north.
2) Traffic jams in the south were magnified by the poor condition of the roads. More troops would have just compounded the problem.
3) The map in GG WITE in the south does not properly reflect the actual terrain conditions present there. It is lacking the intermittent swampland and woodland and at least 3-4 feeding tributary rivers that run south-to-north from as far south as nearly Tarnopl to the Pripyat.
4) Local weather in the end of June and first week of July then was prone to sudden downpours that turned roads to mud and brought wheeled transport to a halt for hours.
5) Hitler did not favor a thrust from Rumania because he feared it would provoke a strong counterstroke by Russia into the Ploesti oil fields in response.

There were those that considered launching a right pincer out of Romania, but Hitler nixed any talk of this due to the oil fields and actually had the German and Romanian forces remain passive until 7 days after the invasion had begun so as not to draw Russian attention in that direction.

My Lvov Pocket solution is a simple House Rule that simply limits the German to advancing into Russia no more than 5 hexes per turn on the first and second turns anywhere south of the Pripyat Marshes. In actuality, the Germans did not reach the area of Rovno,Dubno, Krzemieniec until July 1 due to the agressive armor and mechanised Soviet actions which were much more effective than in the north.

[swkuh]

Appreciate Rex's analysis.

Wonder if some of his points could be addressed by scenario edits? For example, freeze a few more AGS pieces, add some swamp hexes, etc.

Believe a player (vs. AI) should be free to use whatever starting point and rules as given, but for H2H games, house rules help.

Discussion helps play and game development.

[morvael]

Unfortunately map is fixed, scenario designer can't change terrain, only units.

[GamesaurusRex]

Some of the accounts I have read indicate that many of the tanks and transports of the mechanized forces in the south were not actually positioned as far forward as GG WITE places them at the start of the campaign. David Glantz says in "When Titans Clashed" (pg 54) that General Kirponos' units on the night of June 22 "were still assembling from garrisons as much as 400 kilometers away.." from the front.

So move the Russian "tasty bits" back from the front in the scenario.