ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I'm talking about any fighters. The attack in "day" formations, pass after coordinated pass. And I'm not facing NF yet in my game, although they only differ in the plane and gun stats in the DB. I've faced Nates at night in China in 1942. They are wonder weapons in how the whole formation finds my bombers. If you have a beef with fighter losses it's because out of 20 intercepting you get 20 attacking, and then the bomber weapon stats take over. Would 20 planes with no radios, no radar, and no ground direction get a flight of 20 onto a bomber formation? Nope. So if you're going to compare, make it apples to apples. The bomber guns are statted for them to have cooperative firing, as they do in day. Maybe those stats are stepped down at night; I don't know. You don't think they are. But the fighters also perform exactly as they do in the daytime too. The way you want it the bombers would be lone lambs waiting to be pounced on by a formation of fighters, all of which intercept just as they do in broad daylight.
They may engage the bombers, but they will very very rarely shoot them down or even damage them at night (NOT in fact as they work during the day), whereas the defensive fire does shot down the fighters. Your statement is a perfect reason that night bombing is not working well!
If 20 fighters are finding and engaging the bombers, they obviously shouldn't be doing that if this were modeled correctly. They should be working as individual lone wolves, hard to see and hard to hit.
You are assuming huge B-29 raids against NFs in the late war. Very different circumstances than 7 B-17s against non-NF in 1942. That's one problem, of many, with HRs. Everything looks like a nail when you have that hammer.
I'm in the early game. And it really isn't necessary. Ask my opponent. On a good day I can get 30 4Es up. OTOH, ask him about his AA losses recently at Palembang in daylight. Night bombing works for both sides. But a lot of early war Japanese players don't do it because they're, what? Drunk with power? In love with 70-Oscar escort wings? Dunno. But few do any until they think they need to. You don't like getting creamed in late 1944 by overwhelming air power? Welcome to Allied World, The 1942 Tour.
Actually, no.
I'm referring as well to large raids in 42. These have an incredibly devastating effect for that period when there are no Japanese NF, no fighters with armor, very poor AA and radar.
It would really help your argument if you kept the silly comments out. Like 'drunk with power' at using 70
Oscars. If you'd played the Japnese side and had to use Oscars for anything, you'd quickly realize there is only one kind of drinking that this induces. [:)]
Because your opponent doesn't do something, or you don't do something in game, that doesn't mean it's not possible. I've had a level 6 field shut in one night, with a whole group's worth of torched fighters on the ground, the rest with devastated morale ratings, and no chance to do anything about it again for days. So that creates a nice 'opportunity' of another kind; hit anything you want to for during the daylight for many turns, and further reduce the strength of the opposing side.
Great play? Well, not if the original attack that made it possible is a night strike giving every benefit to the player with the better bombers that have unbelievable accuracy in conditions that made it nearly impossibly difficult for the British (the best at night bombing in the war) to get within 5 miles of their intended target in the war! You say add more AA, add fighters to distract and reduce effectiveness of bombers, and yes, those are the only responses, but they are not enough in certain situations, massed Allied 4E and 2E strikes at night, which you seem not to have faced.
I have stopped almost all HI/LI night attacks, even at 1000 feet, because it really isn't accurate. Very much the opposite. Manpower is different. That I'm still doing sometimes. For precise targets such as oil or refineries I do day now almost all the time.
But opportunity cost DOES fly. The beta changes have led to many more lost and confused formations than in the official.
In the game where this is the biggest issue, we're using the official. So yes, it's less of an issue with the beta. I agree with this.
I reject your premises, as I've said. Please don't put words in my mouth. They ARE inhibited if there is a CAP and AA. They start with a good chance of fewer numbers. AND they are less accurate unless low, which gives the AA that is working more of a chance. And then they have a greater chance of crashing on landing. You forgot to mention that last one BTW. Night bombing is not "free." It's just different.
Again, I disagree. Day fighters used on night CAP are magically effective, as above. AA works, but less in my experience. I will say though that many Japanese players are very bad at placing AA where it needs to be. But the biggest hole in your position is this: You as the defender never see the two biggest negatives to the thing--lost and confused planes still eating supply, and ops losses.
I reject your premises as well! Wow. Surprise! [:D]
Not sure where I put words in your mouth. I agree they are inhibited, but at great cost to the defender. As I've experienced and stated over and over, those magic intercepting 20 fighters will lose 7-10 of their number most likely (against a decently sized strike of 70-80 bombers, even though they arrive in separate waves of 9-10 packets), while the bombers might have 1-2 planes damaged and lost to ops on landing. So yes, all you say is correct, you're just not using numbers (that I've seen again and again). Ops losses are ridiculously low for all night missions. Period.
Supply
should be a consideration, so the basis of that part of your argument is correct, but have you ever seen supply problem the Allies can't solve very quickly in game? In the war the Allies couldn't mount a significant bombing campaign until late 43 in India and Burma due to supply and manpower shortages, but this is simply not an issue in game if the Allied player has even a moderate interest in pilot training and logistics.
Night bombing will be limited in the beta as many smaller packets arrive. I like that more, but if you're not using the beta, oh well.
Japanese players are not great at placing AA because early AA sucks, especially, and there is not very much of it to go around. Until you know the OOB better on the Japanese side, maybe restrict your comments to what you know about the Allied side so you don't sound so insulting of other players '
very bad' decisions.
Or, in short ...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Gotta add a post-script: If night bombing is so great, free, and easy, why don't the Japanese do it more?
ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Simple, IJ have no 4E bombers. Night bombing seems well balanced with 2E bombers. 4E at night? Much different results. You may not have an HR. Survey the other AAR's. Most do have HR's. In fact most AAR's state it as a known fact that 4E night bombing is gamey. Good players in that list. Statistically, that is significant.
+1
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill