Researching a Japanese late war fighter

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Chris21wen
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Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by Chris21wen »

When I started my game as Japan I looked at the stats for Japan 44 onward fighters to find the best and most reliable fighter and right or wrong this is what I did and my reasons for doing so.

Although the Frank is in my mined the best it isn't the most reliable (service rating 3) so I pick the Ki-100 (service rating 1) to concentrate my main research on. It also had the advantage of a long family chain and I could research. The family chain being Ki-61-Ia -> 61-Ib -> 61-Id -> 61-IIKAI -> Ki-100-I -> 100-II but I was only going to put the 1a, 1b and Ki-100 into production.

Initially there's one factory researching the 61-Ia (22 under repair), one 61-Ic (2r) and one Ki-100-II (4r). I converted the last two to the Ia and increased all to size 30. I did the same two more factories thus giving be a grand total of 150 research for the Ia all under repair. I also made plans to insure that when I finally started to research the Ki-100 I had more than 500 Ha-33 engines in the pool so that I got the engines research bonus. Note that I did not have any engine bounes for the Ha-60 as used by the Ki-61.

The game date is 25 Nov 1943 and in terms of figures this is what happened bearing in mind that there is no point in researching anything that is due more than two years in the future unless the factories are already repaired. The further away the a/c is the slower the factorories repair.

Due date Model Arrived date
11/42 Ki-61-Ia 10/42*
6/43 Ki-61-Ib 6/43**
3/45 Ki-100-I 9/44***

* Only one factory fully repaired for research and this was converted to production. The four remaining factories were converted to Ib research. (120 total). No Engine bonus.

** No factories were fully repaired for research until close to the Ib due date when two were full repaired. All converted to research the Ki-100-I through the family chain i.e. Id, II KAI then Ki-100-I. DO NOT GO DIRECTLY TO THE Ki-100. If you do ALL of your research factories will become fully damaged. The 1a factory converted to Ib production. No engine bonus.

Can't remember the date exactly but I read a thread about the Ki-83 being good late war fighter against bombers and as I was not researching or intending to research the Ki-83 but with a top speed of 438 and other impressive stats it might be a good idea. With no other option I converted one of damaged Ki-100 research factories to Ki-83 research. I then had 90 fully repaired Ki-100 research factories.

*** With all 90 research factories full repaired and with the full engine bonus for each factory I'm getting 6 reseach points a day. This results in a monthly advance every 18 days. I estimate that of the Ki-100 will come into production Feb/Mar 44. Not a bad effort, a full year ahead of it's orignal due date.

Isn't hindsight wonderful.
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koniu
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by koniu »

Ki-100 is nice plane. I think it should be considered as late war SR1 replacement for Ki-44 but it can`t replace Ki-84.
Little slower from Tojo but can compensate that with CL 20mm guns and better durability and range.

As for Frank it is "must have" plane. He must become main fighter for army until Ki-83, Ki-201 or Ki-94II replace it somewere in early `45. Without it Japanese player will stuck with planes flying below 380mph and that mean every new plane Allies will have will be faster by 40mph+.
And it was confirmed by many players, having something slower from enemy by less than 40mph will give chance to Japan to use superior maneuverability. And that will make difference between 3:1 and 10:1 ratio in battles






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seille
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by seille »

Do you have a source for tests or AARs where the Ki-100 was used with good effect ?

I just reviewed my own R&D projects and ask myself why the hell i started to invest into the Tony-line.
Beside the SR i can´t see a reason. Isn´t Frank only better here ?
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koniu
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by koniu »

ORIGINAL: seille

Do you have a source for tests or AARs where the Ki-100 was used with good effect ?

I just reviewed my own R&D projects and ask myself why the hell i started to invest into the Tony-line.
Beside the SR i can´t see a reason. Isn´t Frank only better here ?
Frank is better but Japanese Player still need SR1 fighter to have something in air when Frank is repairing. And there are only two choices in my mind. Ki-44 or Ki-100.
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seille
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by seille »

Many thanks Koniu.
It´s a hard decision when i look at the Ki-44-IIc and the Ki-100. Like the Ki44 more.
Faster, much better climb speed and better maneuverability. Ok, only 4x12mm instead of 2x20 plus 2x12.
Both SR1. Isn´t this a clear thing ? Or would you definitely overweight the gubn value here ?

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Jorge_Stanbury
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

ORIGINAL: seille

Many thanks Koniu.
It´s a hard decision when i look at the Ki-44-IIc and the Ki-100. Like the Ki44 more.
Faster, much better climb speed and better maneuverability. Ok, only 4x12mm instead of 2x20 plus 2x12.
Both SR1. Isn´t this a clear thing ? Or would you definitely overweight the gubn value here ?


Yes, another point is that Ki-44 IIc comes a year before Ki-100
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obvert
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: seille

Many thanks Koniu.
It´s a hard decision when i look at the Ki-44-IIc and the Ki-100. Like the Ki44 more.
Faster, much better climb speed and better maneuverability. Ok, only 4x12mm instead of 2x20 plus 2x12.
Both SR1. Isn´t this a clear thing ? Or would you definitely overweight the gubn value here ?


What I know for sure in late 44, (10/44) is that the Ki-44 IIc is finished as a front line fighter. It has no chance against Allied fighters and it's guns aren't good enough against the bombers. The George and Jack are still playable, and have specific uses in which they excel. The Frank has been the best performer against fighters but still suffers in my game especially from strata sweeps, as we are using 2nd best maneuver band, meaning I have nothing that gets over 31k yet. The Frank Ir will, and for that reason might be the most important late war fighter until the Ki-83 arrives in 45.

I've got the Ki-100 coming online now. It's specs are slightly below the Ki-61 Id and Ki-61 KAI (which is 20mph faster but with service 4) which are mediocre performers against fighters and okay against bombers in limited usage. The slow speed of the Ki-100 is a real worry but the Frank Ir and the Ib will both be arriving soon and will do the bulk of the higher altitude fighting. It's too bad this fighter is not what it was in the war, which was apparently the best Japanese fighter that saw action according to it's record and the statements of pilots that flew it. They said it could handle the George or the Frank and did very well even against the late war monsters the Allies fielded.

One interesting note about the Ki-100 is that the range and bomb load are decent for a kami with drop tanks. Up to 7(8) hexes with 2 x 250kg (2 x 100kg). So if it turns out to be a poor service 1 fighter then I'll just stick with the Oscar IV (364 mph, better maneuver, less durability, same centerline 20mm) and use some of the Ki-100 for kamis. The higher durability might be useful in a striking role. They could also be good for Home Island defense and other areas that have no risk of sweeps happening. I'm sure they'll do fine against the Russians eventually as well, so I have no fear of continuing to build the plane even if I don't find an immediately good application for it against the better Allied fighters.

The J2M5 has proved to be the best fighter I have right now and in spite of the level 3 rating I'm going to start building only this version of the Jack. It is just fast enough to get the maneuver advantage koniu was mentioning and can operate at high altitudes, unlike the earlier models. The A7M Sam will be coming soon and it looks just one step better, with better climb, 10mph more speed, similar armament, and service 2. This will be the standard from the moment it appears.
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seille
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by seille »

Thanks for your thoughts guys. Very helpful.

I´m in december 1942 now and have 1x30(0) going for the Ki44-IIc which is already advanced to 11/43 moving forward a month every 50 days,
so i would get it at mid 43. early enough i think to be helpful.

Beside this i have 3x30(0) facs researching the Ki-61-Id which is advanced to 02/44 moving forward a month every 33 days. For this plane i don´t have the engine bonus.
And i still think about the reason why i wanted this plane initially.....

IF i would change these 3 facs to the Ki-100 i would participate from engine bonus. 17 days of research would advance this plane a month. It would come online
in october 1943. Still later than the Ki-44-IIc.
Not easy.
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koniu
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by koniu »

Chose is difficult but i think Ki-44II or Ki-100 are equal planes.
I will not expect much difference between them. Against P-47 starto sweeps they are both doomed.

Ki-44 will have probably marginally better survivability against sweeps because of higher speed, better climbing rate and maneuverability, while Ki-100 should be better with killing bombers with his CL guns. But difference will be marginal.

For me most important aspect when choosing between those two planes should be economy.
Any Japanese player should be aware of supply/HI cost of building two similar planes.
If You afford of expending two plane/engine factory lines You can do it. If not, You should probably stick to Tojo because he arrive earlier and he is real game balnce changing plane when he arrive in middle `42



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seille
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by seille »

Ok, what did i do ?

I´ll keep the 1x30 Ki-44-IIc and will produce it.
I changed the 3x30 Ki-61-Id over to Ki-100.

Will produce both models and keep some flexibility. Will be my first time that far and i want to see as many different planes in action as possible
to see what they can do or not.
Beside this i had to turn off the Kawasaki Ha-60 factory. Waste of HI and supply here :(

I have still 3 R&D facs unused and can now think about how to use. I like the Ki-94-II.
Could add some facs here.

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pompack
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by pompack »

In order to get the Ki-100-I in 1943 do the following (if and only if you have the option to switch between production and IRAD)

1. create five IRAD factories at level 10 to produce the Ki-61a

2. as soon as the 61a bingos, bump all five factories to 30 and add three more factories to the 61a and increase each to level 30 (you will produce a significant number of 61a here but it is moderately useful early

3. as each 61a factory reaches level 30, change it (using the sequence EXACTLY) to 61b then 61d, the 61 II KAI, then Ki-100-I)

4. Boost Ha-33 engine production to 200-290 depending on what else requires this engine (you can do this earlier if you can afford the cost in order to get engine stockpile over 500 by the time you start Ki-100-I IRAD)

With a little luck this will get you Ki-100-I a/c by Summer of 43
Chris21wen
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by Chris21wen »

This discussion was not only about the best late war Japanese fighter but also about the speed at which you can research it with the least amount of economical input. I believe the Ki-100 is the best a/c with it's long family chain. You have to remember that the further away the original due date the slower research factories repair and I believe research is quicker by doing it this way plus you do get a mid-war a/c with some reasonable fire power before 1943. I could have gone with the Tojo (I had 30 research on that as well) but the Tony is armoured.

I don't have any direct comparison however neither have I carried out any testing.
Chris21wen
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by Chris21wen »

ORIGINAL: pompack

In order to get the Ki-100-I in 1943 do the following (if and only if you have the option to switch between production and IRAD)

1. create five IRAD factories at level 10 to produce the Ki-61a

2. as soon as the 61a bingos, bump all five factories to 30 and add three more factories to the 61a and increase each to level 30 (you will produce a significant number of 61a here but it is moderately useful early

3. as each 61a factory reaches level 30, change it (using the sequence EXACTLY) to 61b then 61d, the 61 II KAI, then Ki-100-I)

4. Boost Ha-33 engine production to 200-290 depending on what else requires this engine (you can do this earlier if you can afford the cost in order to get engine stockpile over 500 by the time you start Ki-100-I IRAD)

With a little luck this will get you Ki-100-I a/c by Summer of 43

I did it slightly differently and the Ki-100 will be online Feb/Mar.
seille
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by seille »

@Pompack

I use realistic R&D.
And i know how to forward fully repaired R&D facs to next model in its R&D chain. No problems here.
I have now 3x30 undamaged Ki-100-I in development using the engine bonus. Thats why i said 17 days R&D per month advance [;)]

Should have stopped the Ki-61-Id earlier, but it is not too late yet.

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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by pompack »

ORIGINAL: Chris H

ORIGINAL: pompack

In order to get the Ki-100-I in 1943 do the following (if and only if you have the option to switch between production and IRAD)

1. create five IRAD factories at level 10 to produce the Ki-61a

2. as soon as the 61a bingos, bump all five factories to 30 and add three more factories to the 61a and increase each to level 30 (you will produce a significant number of 61a here but it is moderately useful early

3. as each 61a factory reaches level 30, change it (using the sequence EXACTLY) to 61b then 61d, the 61 II KAI, then Ki-100-I)

4. Boost Ha-33 engine production to 200-290 depending on what else requires this engine (you can do this earlier if you can afford the cost in order to get engine stockpile over 500 by the time you start Ki-100-I IRAD)

With a little luck this will get you Ki-100-I a/c by Summer of 43

I did it slightly differently and the Ki-100 will be online Feb/Mar.

Did you push the 61a faster?
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by Commander Stormwolf »


a few points


a) I have a problem with the concept of research altogether

b) no matter what fighters you have, you will be overwhelmed
by the ridiculous mechanics of the a2a model, any fighters
will be decimated by P-47s with the max. alt. sweep exploit

c) Historically the Ki-84 was the best answer to late war allied fighters

d) If you are researching, avoid any strange variants such as the Tojo with 40mm cannons,
go for the fighters with the highest amount of speed like the Ki-84,J7W shinden, or even Ki-46




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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by crsutton »

I can tell you from the Allied perspective that it does not make much difference. P47N and P51D are almost 100 MPH faster than the KI 100. Speed is the best asset a plane can have in AE, and all Allied 2nd generation fighters are fast enough to tear this plane up. I don't think you should worry about firepower so much. Come late in the game a good Allied opponent is not going to give you many passes at his bombers anyway. Basically, you need a at least one low service level fighter so I would say build the easiest and cheapest model that suits your economy. Does not matter which model Tojo, Oscar, Ki 100 as this plane real purpose is to serve as an escort for bombers and possibly a kamikaze. Your work horses vs Allies fighters are the Sam and Frank. Ki83 is a nice wet dream but the Allies should be in position so that this plane does not make much difference when it comes on line.

Don't fret, you have to have them but they are all cannon fodder for Allied fighters, so built the one that makes the best sense for your economy.
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obvert
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I can tell you from the Allied perspective that it does not make much difference. P47N and P51D are almost 100 MPH faster than the KI 100. Speed is the best asset a plane can have in AE, and all Allied 2nd generation fighters are fast enough to tear this plane up. I don't think you should worry about firepower so much. Come late in the game a good Allied opponent is not going to give you many passes at his bombers anyway. Basically, you need a at least one low service level fighter so I would say build the easiest and cheapest model that suits your economy. Does not matter which model Tojo, Oscar, Ki 100 as this plane real purpose is to serve as an escort for bombers and possibly a kamikaze. Your work horses vs Allies fighters are the Sam and Frank. Ki83 is a nice wet dream but the Allies should be in position so that this plane does not make much difference when it comes on line.

Don't fret, you have to have them but they are all cannon fodder for Allied fighters, so built the one that makes the best sense for your economy.

Well, this is just that; the Allied perspective. [:)]

From the Japanese perspective even a little improvement can make a big difference. So if I lose 8 planes defending a base with the Ki-100 whereas I lost 10 with the Tojo IIc, the Allied player might not notice much of a difference. Spread this out over months and and add in pilots saved, and both performance and economy would be affected dramatically.

The thing is I really noticed just this kind of a difference using the Tojo in the past few months, and any other plane I put up, including the later Oscar variants, do better now than this airframe.
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John 3rd
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by John 3rd »

ORIGINAL: obvert
ORIGINAL: crsutton

I can tell you from the Allied perspective that it does not make much difference. P47N and P51D are almost 100 MPH faster than the KI 100. Speed is the best asset a plane can have in AE, and all Allied 2nd generation fighters are fast enough to tear this plane up. I don't think you should worry about firepower so much. Come late in the game a good Allied opponent is not going to give you many passes at his bombers anyway. Basically, you need a at least one low service level fighter so I would say build the easiest and cheapest model that suits your economy. Does not matter which model Tojo, Oscar, Ki 100 as this plane real purpose is to serve as an escort for bombers and possibly a kamikaze. Your work horses vs Allies fighters are the Sam and Frank. Ki83 is a nice wet dream but the Allies should be in position so that this plane does not make much difference when it comes on line.

Don't fret, you have to have them but they are all cannon fodder for Allied fighters, so built the one that makes the best sense for your economy.

Well, this is just that; the Allied perspective. [:)]

From the Japanese perspective even a little improvement can make a big difference. So if I lose 8 planes defending a base with the Ki-100 whereas I lost 10 with the Tojo IIc, the Allied player might not notice much of a difference. Spread this out over months and and add in pilots saved, and both performance and economy would be affected dramatically.

The thing is I really noticed just this kind of a difference using the Tojo in the past few months, and any other plane I put up, including the later Oscar variants, do better now than this airframe.

Obvert--Can you clarify your last sentence? ("Do better now then this airframe.") Do you mean that Tojo has SAVED more lives and production aircraft as a superior plane to what you list or the opposite?
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String
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RE: Researching a Japanese late war fighter

Post by String »

Can anyone explain to me how DO I advance R&D factories from one model to another without them getting damaged?
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