Limited Soviet pre-scenario turn

[hugh04]

Wonder how hard it would be to give the soviets a limited pre-turn 1 move. Allowing a limited number of units to move 2 or 3 hexes, maybe limited to the south only. I suspect only a few changes in deployment would make a Lvov opening very difficult. Also some of the movement limited soviet units should get a release if axis units cross some trip wire. Would this be hard to code?

Vandev

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: vandev

Wonder how hard it would be to give the soviets a limited pre-turn 1 move. Allowing a limited number of units to move 2 or 3 hexes, maybe limited to the south only. I suspect only a few changes in deployment would make a Lvov opening very difficult. Also some of the movement limited soviet units should get a release if axis units cross some trip wire. Would this be hard to code?

Vandev

If Grigsby hadn't totally ignored time and space you wouldn't even have to have this conversation because some of the ludicrous things that happen in turn one or any other point in the game wouldn't even be possible.

It would be nice if he did what John Tiller did and go back into his game to add a phased movement system that takes time and space into consideration so the game functions closer to real life instead of like science fiction time travel.

[Joel Billings]

I just want to point out that some pretty ludicrous things happened on the Eastern Front during the war, including in the first 4 days of the war. [:)]

The answer to the first question is that we've discussed having a pre-turn move in the past and it's not an easy thing to pull off. It also kills any first turn AI script (of course that doesn't impact 2 player games).

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I just want to point out that some pretty ludicrous things happened on the Eastern Front during the war, including in the first 4 days of the war. [:)]

The answer to the first question is that we've discussed having a pre-turn move in the past and it's not an easy thing to pull off. It also kills any first turn AI script (of course that doesn't impact 2 player games).

would it be possible, for PBEM by player choice (ie some sort of tickbox) to allow a slight randomisation of the Soviet opening deployment.

All the versions of the Lvov exploit rely on knowing the precise location of every Soviet unit, even a small degree of randomisation would make that sort of mathematical, painting by numbers stuff impossible. No need for such an option in SP as the AI produces a pretty historical German opening gambit as it is?

In a way, the opening OOB and deployment is too accurate (which I know is an odd thing to say) but that accuracy seems to lie at the root of so much of the turn 1 exploitations.

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

ORIGINAL: Lobster
If Grigsby hadn't totally ignored time and space you wouldn't even have to have this conversation because some of the ludicrous things that happen in turn one or any other point in the game wouldn't even be possible.

It would be nice if he did what John Tiller did and go back into his game to add a phased movement system that takes time and space into consideration so the game functions closer to real life instead of like science fiction time travel.

I just want to point out that some pretty ludicrous things happened on the Eastern Front during the war, including in the first 4 days of the war. [:)]

The answer to the first question is that we've discussed having a pre-turn move in the past and it's not an easy thing to pull off. It also kills any first turn AI script (of course that doesn't impact 2 player games).

Dear Joel, i think Lobster has really a point. Although he could have been more friendly or kind.

[governato]

ORIGINAL: loki100

would it be possible, for PBEM by player choice (ie some sort of tickbox) to allow a slight randomisation of the Soviet opening deployment.

All the versions of the Lvov exploit rely on knowing the precise location of every Soviet unit, even a small degree of randomisation would make that sort of mathematical, painting by numbers stuff impossible. No need for such an option in SP as the AI produces a pretty historical German opening gambit as it is?

In a way, the opening OOB and deployment is too accurate (which I know is an odd thing to say) but that accuracy seems to lie at the root of so much of the turn 1 exploitations.

I always hoped that such a thing would be implemented. Some units could have a chance of being slightly redeployed, by say an hex or two. The problem is also the 21st century like recon the Axis can gather so everything can be uber planned with no chance of any surprises along the road.

[Flaviusx]

Guys, you gotta cut 2by3 some slack here. We're not talking Apple Inc. It's essentially a small 3 man (Gary, Joel, Pavel) shop pushing out an extremely niche product. Nobody is less happy with the Lvov business than me, but the problem doesn't admit of simple solutions, 2by3 needs to get on with the next product, WITW, which is going to revise many of the game's systems.

The quicker that gets done, the quicker they can go back and give WITE2 the facelift we all want. They need to focus on the next project for now, though. And buy WITW when it comes out to support the company, too.

The original game engine in WITE is becoming a bit long in the tooth and there's lots of stuff that needs a fresh look. I'd rather do it the right way, comprehensively, than continue to pester the developers and getting these slow motion revisions and band aids.

[Dangun]

a slight randomisation of the Soviet opening deployment.

Is the resistance to this idea, one of historical concern?

[RedLancer]

No - I think Joel & Flavio have answered the question pretty well.
 
- Firstly it is difficult to do (even though it looks simple)
- Secondly if you added this functionality in then as Joel says it make AI scripting impossible.  Within the editor it is possible to load a recorded version of a first turn's moves played by a human.  This not only gives the AI a boost but also allows a scenario designer the ability to influence the first turn - for example in the Stalingrad scenarios this functionality has been used so that the Axis player vs Soviet AI was faced with encirclement on their first turn.
- It may come as some surprise but more people play against the AI than H2H.  IMO the AI in WitE is pretty damn good and much better than in other games that some have mentioned.
 
Finally and my main reason for posting is that you can achieve the changes to Soviet dispositions that you want by using the editor.  Load the scenario, press w to change to the soviet player, move units, press w to change back to Axis, save game by changing name in the title box and pressing save scenario button and there you are - simple.   

[PMCN]

It should be possible to have the AI play the first turn both as the axis and the soviet and then start the game at turn 2 with the axis turn. This will I guess give the Axis player a starting condition that will be random enough to prevent gamey exploitive behaviour. It will also simulate the command confusion that existed on the soviet side. The main thing it removes is the absolute knowledge of what is where exactly. Both sides will have some FoW to deal with.

[RedLancer]

That's a novel approach.  The AI can play both sides and AI vs AI testing is used a lot in testing to get the basic balancing of the scenarios correct.  So you can set the game on its way with the AI but then start as humans using an automatic save.  However this would use the Turn 1 Axis AI script that is loaded in the 41 Campaign (which isn't gamey).

[SigUp]

It is an interesting approach, but I doubt many Axis players, even those who reject the Lvov opener, are willing to give it a shot. It simply takes away too much strategic freedom for the Germans.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

A limited free set up (using the editor) is the best way to put an end to these pre-programmed super openings. The guys who came up with these deserve to be praised for their brilliance and hours of work in perfecting their plans, but they do tend to ruin the game once they become widely used. A limited free setup makes every game different and enhances the replayability of the game.

If one has complete control over the movement of one's armies as soon as the game starts what's wrong with projecting that ability to the initial deployment within reasonable limits?

[swkuh]

Looking forward here to WitW and then WitE II.

Great ideas as posted are well worth thinking about, but lets keep focus on the best future games.

BTW, kudos to the small team that's done so much so far.