Niche game or undermarketed?

[Darkspire]

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel

Yeah, por them. many of them travel a lot, mobile steam comformity for offline and online games adheres to their wallets a lot.

Actualy, along myself, we even bought a few games on steam AGAIN to have the mobile library and ease of access anywhere we want.

Am I missing something? You can download the DW games you have purchased from the matrix site as long as you are registered and logged in when you make your purchase, so you can download them from anywhere you want, home or on the road. The steam client does the same thing, except that you need the steam client installed. Not to sure if the client automatically installs the game as well though, I have heard it auto updates games, so not to sure what the problem is if you travel and want to download it? Yet again though I am confused as I can not understand why someone who travels would need to either uninstall DW before they went on there travels with there PC / laptop, do they buy a new PC / laptop each time they go off or does steam delete the files when you are so many miles away from the original purchase IP address? In which case you need to install the steam client each time and the game you want to play, with getting DW from Matrix it is downloading the game only and installing that, surely that has to be easier, and once it is installed they can travel all over the place and will have no need to keep installing there favorite games.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

If anyone has contact with Nina Hartley, please pass on this request.

That really does need ironing, she has more wrinkles than a Darby and Jones club outing to Seaford [:D]

Darkspire

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
guarding developers from overexposure because that might make them stop making games like they are doing

No, he did not imply that.

Go back and listen to it again. He talked about how Matrix approaches marketing and distribution for each game individually to reach the greatest audience and generate the most profit - for them and the developer. He starts into it about 1:02 into the podcast.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
my bussiness is to have my friends to ...

You have friends? Will wonders never cease!

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
adheres to their wallets a lot.

In English? I have no idea what you mean by that.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
we even bought a few games on steam AGAIN

Coming from a self-admitted pirate, I'll keep my credulity in check.

Aah.. but it's "we bought"... which could mean another round of offline mode LAN gaming sessions using the same account. Pool your money and buy one game on one account and everyone plays it. How silly of me not to see the obvious.

But on your wording, you might note that you haven't actually bought anything. You've licensed the use of the game. If for any reason, Steam decides to nuke your account - all your games are gone. On the other hand, I have bought DW. It is mine and there is little Matrix can do if they regret that decision. I own. You license. See the difference?

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
ease of access anywhere we want.

You mean like... at you place playing on your LAN with all of you using the same account? Is that one of the places?

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
matrix digital store is too obscure for them to try.

It's a bog-standard ecommerce setup. If they find it "obscure", I can only guess at the horror they must feel when confronted with bizarre creations like Amazon or eBay. Those are far too "obscure" to be understood by the majority of people with an IQ over 40, yes?

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
I never saw anyone post why not on steam, except "it's their decision"...some arguments against steam that were raised are invalid, because posters didn't know that they didn't know what were they saying...

Erik was very clear on the issue. He's analyzed DW distribution on Steam and decided it wasn't in Matrix's interest. Interest == profit - he's been crystal clear on that. I don't see how he could be any more clear than that. Were you expecting him to post a full business analysis?

As to the "never saw an argument why not" statement - the issue I and others raised is that it's a business decision. A decision that Erik has all the facts necessary to determine what is "right". Some people insist that they know better than him what is good for his (supposedly one of the founders of Matrix) company - without access to the facts he used in his decision. Without access to the Steam contract. Or if you prefer more blunt wording - Some people think they know better than him while knowing nothing at all.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: mullk
we are beating this dead horse again?

Alas, as they say, "Fools rush in where fools have been before."

[Athelas2211]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz


You have friends? Will wonders never cease!

Plain rude. You probably have fun days everyday being surprised in such a way with people around you having friends? Or maybe it's just you?

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
we even bought a few games on steam AGAIN

Coming from a self-admitted pirate, I'll keep my credulity in check.

What pirating are you refering to?? Are you nuts? I bought boxed versions of games and bought them again on steam to have everything in one library easy to install without hassle wherever I end up being?
As to MP in LAN in offline mode I'm reffering to my kids and me and games that allow such things? Those that don't, I've bought several copies even for my family although I didn't have to?

Anger much?

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Aah.. but it's "we bought"... which could mean another round of offline mode LAN gaming sessions using the same account. Pool your money and buy one game on one account and everyone plays it. How silly of me not to see the obvious.

Paranoia much? Luckily to my job and earnings, I really don't require help in that department....Actualy, I buy and gift games to others less capable of such endeavours in this time of crysis.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
But on your wording, you might note that you haven't actually bought anything. You've licensed the use of the game. If for any reason, Steam decides to nuke your account - all your games are gone. On the other hand, I have bought DW. It is mine and there is little Matrix can do if they regret that decision. I own. You license. See the difference?

Unfortunately for your argument - not true. There is a EC regulation requiring a time period of support and download for publishers, which Steam and others selling in EU also adhere to, as well as I buy and register games with companies that also allow and provide with separate DL links if required or automaticaly.

If they decide to nuke my account, and I haven't done anything to provoke it - there are ways to get that undone. And, I do have several PCs with installed folders of my games that accidentaly work without steam and even when just copied around.

I am extremely pleased for you that you "grabbed" your copy while you can. I grabbed several of MY copies too.[/quote]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
ease of access anywhere we want.

You mean like... at you place playing on your LAN with all of you using the same account? Is that one of the places?

Do the ICD search. I can help professionaly. Take the F department. No need to pay for advice. Just be sure to take the meds afterwards.

On another note, feel free to visit. My home is your home. We can be friends, you know. Bury the axes etc. Have fun.

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
I never saw anyone post why not on steam, except "it's their decision"...some arguments against steam that were raised are invalid, because posters didn't know that they didn't know what were they saying...

Erik was very clear on the issue. He's analyzed DW distribution on Steam and decided it wasn't in Matrix's interest. Interest == profit - he's been crystal clear on that. I don't see how he could be any more clear than that. Were you expecting him to post a full business analysis?

As to the "never saw an argument why not" statement - the issue I and others raised is that it's a business decision. A decision that Erik has all the facts necessary to determine what is "right". Some people insist that they know better than him what is good for his (supposedly one of the founders of Matrix) company - without access to the facts he used in his decision. Without access to the Steam contract. Or if you prefer more blunt wording - Some people think they know better than him while knowing nothing at all.

On that note, I'd like to see answers to a few more visely written posts of people with knowledge, for example

whiran
hammer58
historyis
etc

a question for example, why not having both models of sales?
noone expects a bussiness analysis, we would like though to have those few points replied to.
Steam contracts are secret to those that sign them. Matrix didn't so....I fail to see the relevance of not saying why that model isn't appropriate for Matrix publisher?

To your opinion I will only say - time will tell....

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Coming from a self-admitted pirate, I'll keep my credulity in check.

What pirating are you refering to?? ... As to MP in LAN in offline mode I'm reffering to my kids and me and games that allow such things? Those that don't, I've bought several copies even for my family although I didn't have to?

It's in violation of your Steam EULA. As I wrote in the linked thread -

Playing a game on multiple PCs at the same time -REQUIRES- multiple game purchases to cover each and every one of those PCs. Or such is the position of 2K Games.

"Can multiple users play simultaneously on one Steam account?"
https://support.steampowered.com/kb_art ... -EIKC-3767

How much more explicit an answer do you want than that? If you -REALLY- think it's allowable - then post the question directly to Steam tech support and see what they say.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
But on your wording, you might note that you haven't actually bought anything. You've licensed the use of the game. If for any reason, Steam decides to nuke your account - all your games are gone. On the other hand, I have bought DW. It is mine and there is little Matrix can do if they regret that decision. I own. You license. See the difference?

Unfortunately for your argument - not true. There is a EC regulation requiring a time period of support and download for publishers, which Steam and others selling in EU also adhere to, as well as I buy and register games with companies that also allow and provide with separate DL links if required or automaticaly.

Wrong. Or so Steam contends.

Penny Arcade has an article on the dispute currently being fought in Germany.

As to your consumer rights, this article from Rock Paper Shotgun shows just how "customer friendly" they are.

You do not own your Steam games. They are not yours. You cannot sell them. You cannot trade them. You cannot loan them. Their use is for you (the account holder) and you alone.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
...my games that accidentaly work without steam and even when just copied around.

Your previous post indicated that you specifically had configured your settings for several people to play the same game at the same time on the same account in offline mode. This is about as "accidental" as the NSA reading your email.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
I'd like to see answers to a few more visely written posts of people with knowledge, for example...

You fail to include Erik's own posts on his own explanations for his decisions. That says all that needs to be said about what information you select to read.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
Steam contracts are secret to those that sign them. Matrix didn't so....I fail to see the relevance of not saying why that model isn't appropriate for Matrix publisher?

Erik himself has posted that Steam distribution was not in Matrix nor Code Force's interest. Do you really need it spelled out more unequivocally than that?

[Athelas2211]

yes, I need it spelled in more understandable language with explanation, since noone here understands how or why it wouldn't be in their interest or the more players that unfortunately miss the game as it is.
too busy watching a movie with wife to continue debating with you.

Hopefully, steam digital games will be resellable, but even if not, it's my choice to use it and like what I do or not.

Try it, you might even like it.
as I PMed you, Ill give you a game for testing.
Feel free to add me as a friend, if eve for game donation purposes.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
yes, I need it spelled in more understandable language with explanation, since noone here understands how or why it wouldn't be in their interest or the more players that unfortunately miss the game as it is.

Less. Profit. With. Steam.
Simple enough for you?

Or as Erik wrote:
we are very open-minded about how to make Distant Worlds as successful as possible. As the publisher, we have explored other distribution options and that does include Steam (not just for this game but for other games as well). It's not the slam dunk for DW that it may appear to be at first glance, but it is an option we will keep evaluating and that door is not closed for the future. We'll always do whatever it takes to maximize the success of Distant Worlds - each decision we make is based on the evaluation of what will give it the greatest success now and in the future.

If you still don't get it, then I'll leave it to you to suss out the meaning of the four devilishly difficult words at the start of this post. I can't help you on this further. I am not qualified to do so.

ORIGINAL: athelas.loraiel
Hopefully, steam digital games will be resellable, but even if not, it's my choice to use it and like what I do or not.

Hopefully. For the sake of their customers.

But I fail to find it reassuring that the company you love so much will only allow their customers their basic consumer rights when forced to do so by a court order.

[Icemania]

Brings the Popcorn. [:D]

[Icemania]

Thanks turtlefang.

It certainly seems like Stardrive has drummed-up a lot more "unearned media" than Distant Worlds. I still can't believe they have 15 pages of review links on their forum, while Distant Worlds Shadows has just a handful. Being new to Matrix, I think it's legitimate to question their performance in this respect i.e. to at least achieve a similar level to Stardrive. I fully understand this doesn't come for "free", of course, but I'm sure there are many supporters out there that remain completely unaware of this game.

I worry that the small base of supporters here is just not enough to justify the DW2 that I would like to see i.e. bringing in some AI specialists, graphics specialists ... not to make iterative improvements, but to raise these aspects to another class entirely.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Brings the Popcorn. [:D]

So cynical!

Alas, I fear there will be little entertainment value for your popcorn. Same tired argument...

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Being new to Matrix, I think it's legitimate to question their performance in this respect i.e. to at least achieve a similar level to Stardrive. I fully understand this doesn't come for "free", of course, but I'm sure there are many supporters out there that remain completely unaware of this game.

As a point of comparison between Matrix and a game developer (not of the same genre, admittedly) which is running a fairly aggressive social media campaign -
Matrix Games
2,428 likes · 86 talking about this

Undead Labs
18,996 likes · 1,271 talking about this

They have interviews with the devs, streaming Q&A sessions, fan artwork contests and silly/humorous posts to keep people's interest and activity up. On their own website, they update with news twice a week or so. Whereas Matrix has... a couple of announcements and generic marketing spiel that's generates little in the way of comments or feedback.

The results speak for themselves. Matrix could learn a lesson or two from them on how to use social media. Again, we're not talking the same market size nor demographics, but I can't help but to wonder what Matrix's sales might be like were they to use similar methods.

[Icemania]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Brings the Popcorn. [:D]

So cynical!

Alas, I fear there will be little entertainment value for your popcorn.

In that case I'm off to the Mass Effect 3 website then ... as there is almost always good Popcorn material around there!

Fun aside, that was quite an interesting comparison Kayoz, thanks. While I agree with your comments regarding Steam, it's good to get this thread back to a more constructive line of thought.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Icemania
Fun aside, that was quite an interesting comparison Kayoz, thanks. While I agree with your comments regarding Steam, it's good to get this thread back to a more constructive line of thought.

One of the main differences in their marketing approaches is that UL's posts are created to be thought provoking and to elicit a response. Contests for artwork. Contests for "post-apocalypse" themed contests (cooking, weapons of choice, etc). Sometimes the contests have a prize (free copy of the game - cheap for them) or nothing more than your name in 16 point font as the "winner". Or explanations on how things work and requests for feedback. They're all written to involve the reader and make them want to reply and share the post (on Facebook) or take part in the discussion/debate/flame-war on the forums.

Matrix, on the other hand, primarily posts announcements. Rarely anything that calls for user response, feedback or stimulates their interest. They're about as likely to elicit a response as spam mail.

UL is interactive, Matrix is not.

I remember the run-up to the release of SMAC. They released the background story of the game little by little, an "episode" or so a week - setting up the back-story of the game so that one had the full story just before the game release date. Pity they didn't try something similar to this for DW.

[paShadoWn]

The Distant Worlds is hugely overpriced and does not appeal to hardcore space 4x fans by being easy, casual and most importantly having no multiplayer.
I got my arse handed to me in GalCiv before i learned it and SotS does it to me sometimes even now when i dont play hivers. In DW i was defeated only in early versions by a bug debt spiral.

Steam factor is considerable too but steam eats souls so i wont question decision on that.

As for ad coverage Shadows is pretty high on google and present on most major gaming sites and blogs.

[Icemania]

Shadows coverage is not high paShadoWn please consider the comparisons previously posted. Stardrive has blown Shadows out of the water with it's coverage. Google doesn't help if you don't know about the game and don't frequent sites like Space Sector. Like many I found this game by pure chance. I didn't find this game on a Polygon or IGN etc. I haven't purchased anything else from Matrix. There have to be a great many customers out there that have been missed ... this is an area that Matrix should revisit.

On Steam, everything has been said, the Matrix position is clear so further discussion has no point, let's move on already.

Yes I'd like to see the AI massively improved. I still find Emperor a challenge most of the time on Civ V etc. But it's hardly a showstopper in the reviews I looked at before purchase, and I've still played a lot of hours anyway.

Our strategies and ship designs could go toe-to-toe with MP and I must admit that has some appeal even if it was just a skirmish mode. It's hardly the most important issue though ... like many I'll always play a great SP strategy game whether it has MP or not.

[turtlefang]

Kayoz -

That is the difference between a professional "marketer" and a company that isn't really marketing but just making announcements.

The examples cited are all examples of "teaser campaigns", contest, direct response and other types of campaigns.

All of these are created to do two things: create buzz within the publishing community by giving them something for them say the company is doing, and interest within the purchasing target market.

It gets back to putting someone(s) to focus on driving the content and interest of the publishers.

[Plant]

I'll say the main thing holding back the sales of Distant Worlds compared with and other games was that when Distant Worlds was released it was barely playable, and even now the user interface is unfriendly if evidenced by the occassional threads of people asking how to execute basic functions. Also, an open beta and demo helps a lot. Can't really see a reason why a beta hardcoded with say 6x6 sectors and 250 stars with 5 empires and a time limit couldn't be produced.

[turtlefang]

You could be right regarding the initial release. I didn't play the game then and only started with the last two expansions.

The old adage is the fastest way to kill a bad product is to advertise it. And it is very difficult to overcome a bad first impression with reviewers and industry influencers if you have a poor product. So the implicit assumption for any marketing effort has to be a good product.

As far as an open beta, I don't buy it. A true open beta to drum up interest would require either well known designers, developers or a title that had a great deal of exposure around it.

Otherwise, your right back to where you are now - a lack of awareness within the wider gaming community. An open beta won't change that. You might get a few more trial users, but not many.

The issue isn't getting to people interested enough to check forums or beta. The issue is to break out into a more mainstream offering. And that requires creating a buzz within the industry rags, not within the hard core that already can find the game on the forum.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: turtlefang
As far as an open beta, I don't buy it. A true open beta to drum up interest would require either well known designers, developers or a title that had a great deal of exposure around it.

I think he meant as part of the other measures. On its own, it probably wouldn't generate that much marketing buzz.

However, an open beta - or one that was more open than Shadows' was - would have spotted many of the issues before release. If you look at the number of forum threads for defects in the first week of release, it should be clear that the beta testing was not exposing bugs.. or Elliot wasn't listening. Either way, the beta of Shadows was poorly run. How poorly and why are questions that Matrix needs to sort out.

A playable product on release day certainly wouldn't hurt marketing efforts. 1.9.0 (release) was, I contend, unplayable.

ORIGINAL: turtlefang
The issue isn't getting to people interested enough to check forums or beta. The issue is to break out into a more mainstream offering. And that requires creating a buzz within the industry rags, not within the hard core that already can find the game on the forum.

Yes, it would be nice to break into the "mainstream" game media. Home page reviews on IGN or Gamespot would be nice.

But I'm not sure that's a realistic goal. Strategy games aren't the sort of "mainstream" games that those sites usually cover (with a few notable exceptions from Sid Meyers and co). But the likelihood of accomplishing that without throwing some serious cash at them is rather low.

Though that said - judging from the actions of Gamespot in the past - a few good escorts visiting the offices of the managers wearing naught but a demo disk, would probably garner positive coverage.

[turtlefang]

If you are planning to use an open beta to help develop the game, I'm all for it. I actually think that is the smart way to go as developers get too close to the game. It is just the nature of the beast.

They are a couple of things that I can cite regarding Distant Worlds:

1) I simply wouldn't but the earlier editions. The reviews I read were bad, especially regarding the interface. I have plenty of money to spend on games so the price didn't scare me, but I have damn little time. So I want something I will enjoy and not fight.

2) I didn't change my mind until several positive reviews came out. But by that time, the damage to the general public and publishing community had already been done. The first release didn't get good reviews, so no one wanted to know about the later releases.

3) It is not multiplayer or doesn't have a multiplayer component. That simply is a drawback and beginning to be a much bigger drawback each year. No way around that. In general, people prefer playing against people not the AI. Even if they just had a section where people could fight space battles against each other with starships, that would create a draw.

4) I would much rather be selling Oranges while everyone else sells Apples. So a strategy game - if done well - will break out and stand out if it has appeal. And having dealt with publishers & reviewers (in a different industry), virtually all of them prefers to cover something different. Why? At the heart of it, another first person shooter is just another first person shooter and they get bored.

The key is to have a good product out of the gate. Then work the publishers. If the product isn't good, or playable, then even in later editions, it won't get covered. It isn't new news then. If it is good, then it will get covered.

[Plant]

Yes, I just think that Distant Worlds gotten off to poor start. I actually read about Distant Worlds, saw how messy and unrefined it was, and assigned it to the back of my head as promising, but not worth it, as like so many other similar games in its genre. It took the release of Shakturi for me to take a look at it again.

As for the beta, it's not fair to blame the programmer, since it'appears that none of the beta testers bothered to test out the pirate factions in the first place!