Niche game or undermarketed?

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historyis
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RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by historyis »

ORIGINAL: Buio
ORIGINAL: AstroCat
I am not going to take the time to do your marketing research but I promise you there is a reason Steam is a success and boon for many indie and smaller game developers. If you look yourself you'll find some of the information you are looking for. And, the last thing I read they were still keeping an open mind towards Steam and other distribution sources, GoG perhaps.

Hint: try "steam indie game success" google search, or anything similar.

Of course it is easy to find indie game success stories, because there are so many games on Steam, and you google specifically for positives. But it's just a small percentage of the games actually on Steam. It doesn't mean your game will be an automatic success just because you put it on Steam.

And you know that Steam has a filter called "greenlight" to sort out indie games that don't have hype and popularity? Which means they only take in games that show a certain amount of following. Noble of Steam, not letting unknown rabble getting in. I mean all those games are probably bad just because they are unknown.

Here is a story about that. There are more, if you search for negatives.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JoolsWat ... 17/190704/

So your response to people who want the game to be on Steam is to link to a story about someone who desperately wants their game on Steam.

Personally, as someone who owns this game and its expansions, it benefits me if more people play it and know about it, because the bigger the audience, the more people there are to make mods and to share stories with.

The fact that there are no reviews and very few people are talking about this game and the fact that Metacritic/Gamerankings didn't even list the latest expansion as having been released bothers me (especially since they do list the upcoming SoaSE expansion and the upcoming Panzer Corps game).

This is arguably one of the best 4x games on the market that seems incredibly easy for a player to install mods to and no one is talking about it because so few people know about it.

And the modding... as a community we should be selling people on the mods, because I think the Game of Thrones mod for CKII sold a lot of copies of that game to people who wouldn't have otherwise bought it (and the coverage of that mod along with the more recent Elder Scrolls one is also good press for that particular title).
Buio
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RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by Buio »

ORIGINAL: AstroCat
I was suggesting "in addition to" not "in place of" for the selling of DW. I just can not see the downside of adding a game like this to Steam.
It's not free, and takes work to adjust it for Steam. Then Valve takes 30% tax on your sales. Supporting two different systems to patch the game is also extra work. And as far as I know there is one man working on the game, except freelancers for graphics/audio.
hammer58
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RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by hammer58 »

I guess I do not understand the issue propperly about steam vs the matrix digital sales model.
 
Why can't Matrix do both?
 
I think someone said that AI wars is available on steam and it is also a digital download on the matrix site.
So they can do it both ways. Then the gamer can choose where he wants to get the game from.
 
So what am I missing? Just trying to help the situation along.
I think just selling the game on steam would get a lot of people to at least look up the game.
I know it would have clued me in years ago. I would have searched you tube for a lets play of distant worlds after seeing it for sale on steam.
Then if I liked what I saw which I do, then I would have bought the game, probably from steam.
And I would have been playing it for years already.
 
I still would not have been aware of the matrix site however had I done that.
Matrix needs to do a better job of advertising its home site.
Lots of cool games that are mostly only available on Matrix, games I want to play but never knew existed until just recently.
So this issue for me goes well beyond Distant Worlds. It is a Matrix in general lack of advertising.
 
They need a pop up ad. So when you mouse over it, say like on yahoo, then the ad changes to the image of all the game boxes like on top of their web site. So A guy can see all of the titles they have then if you click on it, you then go to the Matrix web site. A simple ad like that would do the trick.
It would have worked on me anyway.
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henri51
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RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by henri51 »

It doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me, and I have dozens of games on Matrix and Steam. I just want to note that many (if not most) of the games on Steam are also available on Gamersgate and Gamespot (where I have also bought some games), so having games on two sites is not rare. However I do agree that it is up to Matrix to do their own marketing decisions and to live with the consequences.But I find having games on Steam so useful that I have even bought Steam versions of games I already have (like CiV 5 and Medieval Total War) for the convenience of not having to insert the DVD, and the ease or uninstalling and reinstalling the game (just press the button).

This does not apply to Ubisoft games like Heroes VI, who are driving people crazy with their bugged DMR on Steam.

Henri
Drexy
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RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by Drexy »

Really sick reading some of the anti steam post on this forum, i don't own the game because its just way to expensive for me right now just go read the 4x forum on reddit where every time this game comes up two things are said a)This is one of the best 4x games b) its too expensive/not on steam

1)Don't Steam DRM: So what? no ones forcing you to use steam you can buy/download from here it being on steam won't stop that
2)Devs won't profit as much due to valves cut: like i said so many people on reddit say they would buy if the could get it discounted on steam, this game will sale 20-50x as many copies as it currently does if it was on steam + you will get even more people who never heard of the game because they see it on a steam sale

turtlefang
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RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by turtlefang »

I think a lot of people are missing the point.

Having managed third party distribution systems - which is what Steam is - there are a lot of advantages and disadvantages to using the system. It not just as easy as saying "yes, it will drive volume up by zillions and zillions of units".

Anytime you have a third party system, you shift cost. There will be more cost associated with doing business with the 3rd party and less cost as the 3rd party handles things that you don't have to handle anymore.

Before making a business decision to go that direction, you really have to take a very careful look at how those cost shift - and not just game distribution cost - but also patch distribution cost, technical support, what type of support would steam require you to provide, contract management cost (legal), accounting cost, etc... .A whole lot of things. Going with a 3rd party distribution system requires a different cost structure than a direct distribution system. The question is how different, and how expensive is it?

And how much of the revenue are you willing to share. And is that revenue sharing down on a fix cost basis, a fix cost until you sold XX number of units and then a % of sales, or a straight percent of sales? And is it worth it?

And will you avoid any cost by using the 3rd party to offset new cost (doubtful if you have to maintain TWO distribution systems) or gain enough revenue to offset those cost?

And I'm assuming that CodeForce and Matrix are smart enough to know what these cost requirements are, do a decent job of estimating the revenue benefits (or at least the breakeven benefits), and come up with a cost benefit ratio. Heck, they have to be good with numbers, they're designing games based on of numbers and projections.

So whatever business decision they have made, I would assume is the right one for them now. And if they are reasonable business people - and so far, my interactions with them make me believe they are reasonable, they will re-evaluate these decisions once in while to see if anything has changed. And then make what they think is the right business decision with more information that we have.

And, no, I'm not a Steam hater or lover. I buy games from Steam when they have games that I like, and I play games on Steam with my friends when we have the same games.

But I also pay extra just to have those disk in my hand when I order a game from Steam or Matrix - because it makes me feel better to have them on my shelf.
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Kayoz
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RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Drexy
i don't own the game <snip excuses and whingeing>
So, why then are you here whingeing? Is the only reason you've popped onto the forums, to whinge that Matrix's business model isn't right because it's not what you want?

It seems that you have no locus standi. You're just here as a busybody/troll.
ORIGINAL: Drexy
every time this game comes up two things are said a)This is one of the best 4x games b) its too expensive/not on steam
I think we can ignore the "anti-Steam" sentiment you whinge about. It isn't about Steam at all. You've cited the price of the game repeatedly in your post. In fact, in the above quote, you've gone so far as to lump them together.

You don't really care what distribution method they use, do you? What you really want is DW on the cheap.
ORIGINAL: Drexy
1)Don't Steam DRM
It isn't about DRM. It's a simple business decision. Erik has stated that repeatedly and unambiguously. Steam distribution is not in Matrix's interest. He has all the demographic data on sales, and it is very much in his interest to maximize his profits. That he does not wish to enter into an less/unprofitable business arrangement should not come as a surprise.

But then again, as you repeatedly state in your post - the Steam argument is a red herring. What you want is to pay $2 for DW.
ORIGINAL: Drexy
2)Devs won't profit as much due to valves cut
Do you have any data to back that statement up? Erik (read as Matrix if you wish) has loads of demographic data. He has a business model that seems to be working for him. You, on the other hand, have ... what exactly? A couple of unsourced claims of stupendous sales and your own inestimable business acumen (or so you seem to think of your ability).

Gee, I wonder which Matrix directors will put their trust in?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” &#8213; Christopher Hitchens
Athelas2211
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RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by Athelas2211 »

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: AstroCat

I am not going to take the time to do your marketing research but I promise you there is a reason Steam is a success and boon for many indie and smaller game developers. If you look yourself you'll find some of the information you are looking for. And, the last thing I read they were still keeping an open mind towards Steam and other distribution sources, GoG perhaps.

Hint: try "steam indie game success" google search, or anything similar.

Maybe so, but then you lose customers like me who refuse to use STEAM and be forced to use online DRM to play my single player games. I like Matrix Games business model just like it is, I buy my game, type in my serial code and I play the game. No DRM checks, no not being able to play if I lose internet, no having to worry about Wi-Fi if I installed it to a laptop.

Also, I don't mind paying more if it means I'm not treated like a criminal even when I've done nothing wrong (IE Always Online DRM).

you have no idea what are you talking about. I hate those things too. Steam doesnt require the game to be only on steam. Stardock for example, sold their games on all digital distribution channels. AS WELL AS enabling registered owners download of updated versions from their servers.

Also, I travel a lot. and take my laptop with me a lot for gaming between working hours.

ITS NEVER ON internet.
All my games are now on Steam.

It works. Just works. no internet or with internet.

Try it to see and then you will know.
playing RTS, strategy and RPG games from ...ever?
Athelas2211
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RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by Athelas2211 »

and I agree with all the arguments on low marketing of Matrix that has to be upped.

I think that we are missing the stinkin' herring here.

publisher fears it may become irrelevant if the steamscheme works too well....
playing RTS, strategy and RPG games from ...ever?
whiran
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RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by whiran »

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
So, why then are you here whingeing? Is the only reason you've popped onto the forums, to whinge that Matrix's business model isn't right because it's not what you want?

It seems that you have no locus standi. You're just here as a busybody/troll.
Wait, because someone WANTS a game but is unhappy about the price point which is, as a comparative to the rest of the market, remarkably high they are a busybody/troll?

My goodness, if I was an impartial third party reading this I might think your post is the trolling post.
ORIGINAL: Kayoz
You don't really care what distribution method they use, do you? What you really want is DW on the cheap.
Is it a bad thing to want a game at a different price point?

Distant Worlds -is- expensive. It is, for many people, ridiculously priced. Distant Worlds with all of its expansions costs ~$100 USD.

Matrix does not believe in treating Distant Worlds as anything other than a niche product positioned exclusively as an expensive game. That's fine because, at this point, the PRICE has become something of a selling feature for the people who get it.
ORIGINAL: Kayoz
It isn't about DRM. It's a simple business decision. Erik has stated that repeatedly and unambiguously. Steam distribution is not in Matrix's interest. He has all the demographic data on sales, and it is very much in his interest to maximize his profits. That he does not wish to enter into an less/unprofitable business arrangement should not come as a surprise.

But then again, as you repeatedly state in your post - the Steam argument is a red herring. What you want is to pay $2 for DW.
I would argue that to reach a larger audience then using Steam, even at the $100 USD price point, is in Matrix's interests. Just because they refuse to accept that gaining access to a marketplace of over 11 million gamers is a good thing doesn't make them right.

No one says that a game going on Steam -has- to be cheap in any way, shape, or form. Look at Planetary Annihilation. The Early Access price point is $90 USD and people bought into it.

Even if the price point were to be reduced then making a sale at $50 USD is $50 USD MORE than what was had before.

Matrix does a terrible job at marketing. That's plain and simple.

The price point for Distant Worlds is outrageous in comparison to other games of a similar nature. But, even with that, Matrix still fails at marketing the game - no one except a very small group of gamers even knows about the title and what it is. That's failure.

The fact that Matrix believes Historicon is their "major" event of the year is laughable. Historicon gets a total of 3500 to 4000 visitors over the course of three days. That's just over 1000 people per day. That includes children.

We have events in the City that I live in for "Health and Wellness" that draw in over 15,000 people and the price to be at those events is the same as the ~$400 USD for a 10x10 presence at Historicon. From the site map of Historicon is looked like Matrix had a 5x10 presence tucked away at the side. That's the "major marketing event" for Matrix. And for that event almost all communications were shut down. Don't get me started on the "press releases" as per the news and announcements forum.
Kayoz wrote:Do you have any data to back that statement up? Erik (read as Matrix if you wish) has loads of demographic data. He has a business model that seems to be working for him. You, on the other hand, have ... what exactly? A couple of unsourced claims of stupendous sales and your own inestimable business acumen (or so you seem to think of your ability).
Endless Space passed the 300,000 sales mark in March of 2013.

Check out a search for Endless Space sales 300000 since I'm not allowed to post a link directly.

Let's pretend that Amplitude Studios only made $10 USD per copy of Endless Space sold (the game sells for $30 USD, Steam probably takes 30% so that leaves $20 and then the game was rarely on sale for half off although at half off that still leaves Amplitude making $11.50 per copy sold but let's say $10 USD) then Amplitude Studios made 3 million dollars from Endless Space.

That does not include sales of their recent DLC or sales from the Summer Sale where Endless Space was one of the top sellers when it was part of the daily special.

Has Matrix made 3 million from Distant Worlds?

Matrix is privately held and they have never announced sales numbers for Distant Worlds that I could find so I don't know.

To make 3 million, Matrix would need to sell only 30,000 copies at $100 USD.

People here claim that Distant Worlds is an amazing game. Okay, I pretty much believe that Distant Worlds is a good game from the Let's Plays that I've watched of it. So, why not release it to a larger audience?

There is no good reason not to.

Planetary Annihilation sold over 6000 copies on Steam at $90 a pop when it was opened up to Early Access. That's 6000 sales in a week at $90 for a game that is in alpha.

That says a lot, to me, about what people are willing to pay on Steam.

Just because a game goes to Steam does NOT mean that it has to be "cheap."

Nor does it mean that anyone who wants the game to be available on Steam wants the game for $2 USD. That's a pretty absurd piece of "logic" to make. Even if we look at lowering the price to be something comparable with other products that still does not lead to $2 USD. I believe the term to be used here for your "argument" is reductio ad absurdum.

If the game went to Steam at $100 USD, it would sell.

If the game went to Steam at $60 USD, it would sell more.

If the game went to Steam at $40 USD, it would sell even more.

If the game went to Steam at $30 USD, it would sell even more more.

The point of pricing, from a marketing standpoint, is to sell as many copies as one can to make the most money. The "art" in Marketing is figuring out how many people in each price bracket exist and sell to that bracket at its fullest potential before shifting the product to the next pricing bracket. Getting stuck in a bracket is a failure of marketing. Heck, even in Marketing 100 courses they talk about moving a product through its price points over the course of its lifespan.

The argument that this is a niche product and complicated and wouldn't sell because of that or that the 'masses wouldn't understand it' is silly to me. Look at Crusader Kings II. That is a highly complicated, esoteric, and complex game to get into. That is a game that is very much NOT user friendly and yet it sells like hotcakes because, at the end of the day when you get into it, it's good. It's rich. It IS complex.

If this game you all love known as Distant Worlds is as good as you claim it to be then other people will recognize it as well.

Personally, I would bundle up the game and its expansions into a single package (which is what all major publishers do for a reason) and try to get it on Steam, Greenman Gaming, Gamer's Gate, and Amazon at either a $50 USD or $60 USD price point depending on the information provided / guidance provided by Steam. Heck, I might even list it at $100 USD and let the PRICE itself sell the product. The amount of "outrage" and buzz generated by that price point would be huge and the publicity would be everywhere.

Since the game is a good one it would sell.

Then, I would participate at the Winter Sale with a 50% off or maybe a 66% off. After the Sale, price would revert back to the 100 USD price point.

Still, I, personally, would suggest listing the game at $50 or $60 as a 'gold' edition of the game (including all the "expansions") and let it experience a wider market.

Anyway, this is all pent up annoyance that I have with Matrix because I see them making the same mistakes that I see other companies make with a good product and no idea how to move into a new market. Matrix claims that they are interested in broadening their market but they fail miserably at doing so. There are other games in the Matrix catalog that would sell like crazy... if they were marketed but they aren't so the games get an occasional mention at a gaming site, receive HUGE interest, and no one buys because the game isn't available. I'm looking at you Alpha Centauri 2 (Pandora: First Contact). Heck, that particular game has all the hallmarks of being vapourware even though it is, apparently, not - the lack of communication about it is that lacking.

At one point I was ready to buy Distant Worlds and all expansions for $60. Now, even at that price point I am not that interested anymore - because of how Matrix behaves and mishandles their catalog of games. They are stuck in their mindset of making a niche game and selling it at a niche price. They cannot cross the chasm to making it big because of the way they limit themselves.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for Matrix since this appears to be what they want) their games will never make it huge. I suppose that isn't the goal anyway. So long as the games continue to iterate at a regular pace and cater to a small, but appreciative audience, job well done right? I know many companies that are happy to exist as small businesses catering to a small list of clientele without growing. There is, really, nothing wrong with being content with how things are. I thought this maybe was the case with Matrix but was told otherwise. :p

I know there is a reluctance to move the price point too much because of a fear of alienating existing customers who DID pay the full amount. There are solutions to that as well. Easy ones. One just needs to be creative and realize that you can move out of a price bracket without upsetting people by recognizing what they have done for you.
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Kayoz
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RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: whiran
Wait, because someone WANTS a game but is unhappy about the price point which is, as a comparative to the rest of the market, remarkably high they are a busybody/troll?
Look up the meaning of "locus standi". It seems that you don't understand the term.

Yes, Drexy has every right to whinge as much as he wants about the price of DW. He also has the right to whinge about the price of Dominos pizzas, Ferraris and the high cost of skydiving lessons. All those whinges have the same value - none.

The whinges benefit nobody and ultimately serve no purpose. As such, I consider it trolling. The only point of the whingeing is to garner attention.

I WANT the personal escort service prices of several porn stars to be lower. But for me to post on the forums that they are charging too much is absurd. It's their livelihood - their business - and as such, their choice. If anyone has contact with Nina Hartley, please pass on this request.
ORIGINAL: whiran
Is it a bad thing to want a game at a different price point?
No. But it's pointless without offering a reasonable remedy for the complaint, such that Matrix will benefit from changing their business model. Drexy completely failed to present any facts to support his argument.
ORIGINAL: whiran
Matrix does not believe in treating Distant Worlds as anything other than a niche product positioned exclusively as an expensive game. That's fine because, at this point, the PRICE has become something of a selling feature for the people who get it.
A high price is a "selling feature"??? You're saying that I-enjoyed- shelling out for all of DW? You're arguing that potential customers will be attracted by a high price? Please cite your source of this as a legitimate business model. And note, that DW is not a Gucci bag you can dangle on your shoulders to impress friends.

Is DW a niche product? As it stands, I'd have to say YES. The gameplay time requirements are too high, the visual candy is too low, and the documentation obscure/non-existent for the learning curve to be surmountable for most players without resorting to forum posts. Erik has hinted that DW2 will address these and make it a more "mainstream" offering - but given the state of the game, I see little reason to disagree with the "niche product" classification.

Ultimately, however, it's a question of demographics. How many potential customers are there, how does one market to them and how does pricing affect their buying decisions. Those questions are far more important to how one positions, markets and prices a game than whether or not it is a "niche product".

So I put it to you, that Erik has the demographic information on his target customers and you do not. Refute this is you like.
ORIGINAL: whiran
I would argue that to reach a larger audience then using Steam, even at the $100 USD price point, is in Matrix's interests.
Clearly, they have not come to the same conclusion. They, I have every reason to believe, every reason to want to increase their profits. They have looked into Steam distribution, crunched the numbers, and decided not to pursue it. That they have all the information available to them and you do not, should be a clear indication to anyone which is more likely to be correct.
ORIGINAL: whiran
Just because they refuse to accept that gaining access to a marketplace of over 11 million gamers is a good thing doesn't make them right.
It`s in their interest to be right. They have the data to determine if such a decision would be "right" for them. Yet your continued argument on this issue seems to indicate that you STILL do not accept their decision - despite them having every reason to make the decision that is most profitable and which will increase their market share.

I sincerely hope you don't consider your refusal, to accept their facts-based decision, to be a refusal that any right-minded reader would consider to be "reasonable".
ORIGINAL: whiran
No one says that a game going on Steam -has- to be cheap in any way, shape, or form.
That, indeed, is the core of Drexy's dispute. The price. It's quite clear from his post that the Steam, the DRM and marketing issues are red herrings. What he wants is clear - he wants DW on the cheap. He went so far as to lump pricing and Steam distribution into the same point in his brief list of complaints.

If Matrix were to distribute on Steam and leave their prices unchanged, he would STILL be complaining.
ORIGINAL: whiran
Matrix does a terrible job at marketing. That's plain and simple.
There's room for improvement, I agree. Much room. But they have improved vastly in the last 2 years, particularly. Hopefully Erik will continue this trend.
ORIGINAL: whiran
no one except a very small group of gamers even knows about the title and what it is. That's failure.
I disagree. The real question of failure/success is profitability. Not, as you assert, public awareness.
ORIGINAL: whiran
The fact that Matrix believes Historicon is their "major" event of the year is laughable. Historicon gets a total of 3500 to 4000 visitors over the course of three days. That's just over 1000 people per day. That includes children.

We have events in the City that I live in for "Health and Wellness" that draw in over 15,000 people and the price to be at those events is the same as the ~$400 USD for a 10x10 presence at Historicon. From the site map of Historicon is looked like Matrix had a 5x10 presence tucked away at the side. That's the "major marketing event" for Matrix. And for that event almost all communications were shut down. Don't get me started on the "press releases" as per the news and announcements forum.
The ultimate size of the audience is determined by the "reach" of those attending the conference. 3500-4000 might seem a trivial number - but if you consider the number of those who are bloggers or operators of game review sites, the number they can reach is significant.

The White House press briefing room is a small and crowded place with only a few dozen people - which in your argument - would make it insignificant compared to the number of viewers of any capable street performer on a weekend afternoon. Spandy Andy's performance is, you would say, more significant than the White House - woo!
ORIGINAL: whiran
...then Amplitude Studios made 3 million dollars from Endless Space.
That's all that needs to be said about your ES example. That you believe the full revenue from sales goes into Amplitude's pockets says all that needs to be said about your understanding of business costs and distribution contracts.
ORIGINAL: whiran
Has Matrix made 3 million from Distant Worlds?

Matrix is privately held and they have never announced sales numbers for Distant Worlds that I could find so I don't know.
That's the core problem I have with your position. You do not know. They do. And yet you dispute their business model. You repeatedly, ad nauseum, claim that their decisions are unwise. But you have no information to back up your claim.

And that's not addressing your difficulties with costs (no, it's not all profit as you seem to assert).
ORIGINAL: whiran
To make 3 million, Matrix would need to sell only 30,000 copies at $100 USD.
If such were the case, Code Force would have some very pointed questions for Matrix. You seem to ignore the developer's royalties.... as well as any other costs.
ORIGINAL: whiran
So, why not release it to a larger audience?

There is no good reason not to.
See above, on market demographics.

It's a business decision. One made based on the data available to Matrix. Data which Erik has stated, is quite substantial.
ORIGINAL: whiran
Just because a game goes to Steam does NOT mean that it has to be "cheap."
I don't know how Steam pricing is determined. Their wording is vague and subject to a great deal of interpretation. But as Drexy went to great pains to point out, his disagreement is the price - not the distribution platform.
ORIGINAL: whiran
If the game went to Steam at $100 USD, it would sell.

If the game went to Steam at $60 USD, it would sell more.

If the game went to Steam at $40 USD, it would sell even more.

If the game went to Steam at $30 USD, it would sell even more more.
Revenue does not equal profit.

Matrix is in business to make a profit. They are not in business for revenue. If lower prices do not equal increased profits, then there is no reason for them to lower prices. You have completely failed to realize this.
ORIGINAL: whiran
The point of pricing, from a marketing standpoint, is to sell as many copies as one can to make the most money.
Profit. Not revenue.

Increasing sales volume at the cost of profit, would be called, to use business technical terms, a stupid decision.
ORIGINAL: whiran
The "art" in Marketing is figuring out how many people in each price bracket exist and sell to that bracket at its fullest potential before shifting the product to the next pricing bracket.
I absolutely agree. And Erik has a great deal of information on which to base that decision. You do not. And yet you continue to assert that you know better.
ORIGINAL: whiran
The argument that this is a niche product and complicated and wouldn't sell because of that or that the 'masses wouldn't understand it' is silly to me.
I think it's safe to assume that Matrix has done market studies on which to determine DW's appeal. This is silly by your point of view.
ORIGINAL: whiran
Personally, I would bundle up the game and its expansions into a single package
I believe Erik has stated that this (a "gold" edition) is on the map.
ORIGINAL: whiran
Heck, I might even list it at $100 USD and let the PRICE itself sell the product. The amount of "outrage" and buzz generated by that price point would be huge and the publicity would be everywhere.
See above, regarding my request for a source to support your assertion that high pricing increases sales.

Paula Deen, by your argument, should be on the marketing gravy train for life. Strangely enough, she does not seem to be happy with all the attention she is getting. Mysterious, isn't it?
ORIGINAL: whiran
... no idea how to move into a new market.
... they fail miserably at doing so.
I'm looking at you Alpha Centauri 2 (Pandora: First Contact). Heck, that particular game has all the hallmarks of being vapourware even though it is, apparently, not - the lack of communication about it is that lacking.
I would argue that strategy gaming is older, by far, than "action" gaming. How old is chess? It's new, by your statement.

Pandora is in beta. Hyping it at this point would be premature. But suggesting it will fill the boots of SMAC is, I believe, overly hopeful.
ORIGINAL: whiran
Now, even at that price point I am not that interested anymore - because of how Matrix behaves and mishandles their catalog of games.
So it's not the price. It's not the distribution. Your decision not to purchase DW was based on ... their marketing practices?

You are very confusing. You repeatedly assert that price is the major issue. And then state that, for you, it is not. Whaaaaattt?
ORIGINAL: whiran
...their games will never make it huge. I suppose that isn't the goal anyway.
Erik has been very clear on this. It is his goal. You suppose wrongly.
ORIGINAL: whiran
So long as the games continue to iterate at a regular pace and cater to a small, but appreciative audience, job well done right?
Wrong. I would guess that Erik would be gnashing his teeth if he reads this.

I'm quite sure he'd love to make millions of sales and dominate the market. I'm quite sure he'd love to fill his bath with MONEY and eat cakes decorated with candles of burning MONEY, carried by scantily clad women (or men - Erik's preference being unknown) garbed in bikinis made of MONEY. Your position, that such is not his goal, is absurd.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” &#8213; Christopher Hitchens
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Icemania
Posts: 1847
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Location: Australia

RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by Icemania »

I don't want to get into the specific and amusing debate in recent posts but will simply say it would be great to have far larger group of people playing the game and being active on the forum. In parallel, since I'm in dream mode, I'd love to see a development team in place around Elliott (e.g. bringing in a 4X AI guru!) engaging with the community for ideas on DW2.

Given we probably all share variations on this theme let's return to a more constructive space.

I'm not in the industry but must admit to surprise that there are so few reviews for this game ... after stumbling upon it by chance personally. I know Matrix have sent Shadows around (etc), but as one of the better games in the genre, is there anything more Matrix realistically could do here? Some broader select advertising? Review tours with any of the majors that show even the slightest interest etc? How does Stardrive get so many reviews, while Shadows get so few?

i.e. I'm suggesting we move on from the Steam debate.


turtlefang
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:43 am

RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by turtlefang »

What you are suggesting is called "unearned media". It means getting press exposure without paying any money for it.

And there are a lot of proven approaches to getting unearned media. It isn't rocket science. It is usually used by people who don't have a large advertising budget or a specialized product but can afford someone full time to pound the concrete to drum up:

1)interviews,
2)reviews,
3)press mentions,
4)create press releases,
5)speaker placement at events or on panels,
6)write a blog,
7)or even write articles that others can publish under their byline
8)establish "advisory councils" for input or suggestions into the game or future games from industry writers, reviewers and experts to raise their interest and likelihood of writing about it,
9)writing guest articles for magazines or online review publishers

But its not free. You have to have someone working the phones, developing a relationship with reviewers and writers, etc..

In this case, your trading labor and time for advertising dollars.

Most writers and publishers are always looking for something to write about so it works. But again, you have to work it - they won't come to you regardless of how good the game is or is perceived to be unless it is one of the "hottest" topics out there.

Sometimes people call it "Guerilla Marketing". Although that term is going out of fashion now. Some people now call it "Social Marketing" but term actually means something else - a little similar but with a much different focus.
Athelas2211
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:15 am

RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by Athelas2211 »

It's Steam.
and putting an exorbitant price on beta product, thuus earning a lot of interest in players and reviewers (reffering to the unusual review number for Stardrive).

As to revenue/profit discussion, I'm sorry to hear that two posts up guy doesn't have more information about profits from Steam sales.

I fortunately have some info, and can't disclose it, but suffice it to say that contrary to votes of many Stardock customers, they moved SOLELY to steam selling from 2013th year and into future.

They didn't do it for low profit reasons. Stardock forums have their CEO's explanation about it which TOUCHES parts of revenue/profit relation.

I am almost positive that Matrix is afraid of moving to Steam and other digital sales shops because their middle-man-role might become less significant.

I would definitely like to see Erik from Matrix to explain, ad nauseam, all the details of their reluctance to go digital other then Matrix shop.

I would then accet the decision and say no more.
Otherwise, everyone will see the stinky fish around every corner....and I will fail to get more people play and pay for Stardrive, such an excellent game....

Hell, a lot of people would buy it for 100$ steam; 70$ they would make that way (even if 50:50 split to Code devs) would be more then they are selling today.

Are they even selling any today?
How many shadows have they sold?

I'd bet less then few hundred.
playing RTS, strategy and RPG games from ...ever?
Athelas2211
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:15 am

RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by Athelas2211 »

I just listened to Erik giving interview with Space game junkie, and he definitely didn't give one reason why not.
I got the impression that Matrix is guarding developers from overexposure because that might make them stop making games like they are doing, as opposed to going some other venue ....strange to hear such remarks.

Its available on itunes podcasts SGJ podcast, #21, last few minutes if anyone is interested.

I'll reiterate. Erik, if you find the community trustworthy and grown up as majority, please explain what do you find not acceptable by putting Distant wars to other distribution channels knowing "the demographics of the people who (NOW) play the game".

thanx.
playing RTS, strategy and RPG games from ...ever?
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Plant
Posts: 418
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RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by Plant »

I don't understand what business it is of yours to concern yourself with the running of other people's well, business.
Athelas2211
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:15 am

RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by Athelas2211 »

it's rather simple answer - my bussiness is to have my friends to have fun with such a game; they actualy expect it of me to help them out.
So I do it.


playing RTS, strategy and RPG games from ...ever?
Strat_84
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:35 am

RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by Strat_84 »

And not having this game on Steam prevents your friends from having fun ? Poor dudes ... [:o]
Athelas2211
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:15 am

RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by Athelas2211 »

Yeah, por them. many of them travel a lot, mobile steam comformity for offline and online games adheres to their wallets a lot.

Actualy, along myself, we even bought a few games on steam AGAIN to have the mobile library and ease of access anywhere we want.

matrix digital store is too obscure for them to try. not me, but, as I prviously mentioned.

but I digress, my main wish is to understand. I presume none of you can give answer, so I'll wait....actualy. I never saw anyone post why not on steam, except "it's their decision"...some arguments against steam that were raised are invalid, because posters didn't know that they didn't know what were they saying...
playing RTS, strategy and RPG games from ...ever?
pmelheck1
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:04 pm
Location: Alabama

RE: Niche game or undermarketed?

Post by pmelheck1 »

we are beating this dead horse again?

Hmmm. Panzer Corps was put on green light on steam a much more main stream and lower priced game for you low price gamers out there. Can you please point me to the steam page for it? It must have been approved in hours of posting according to some voices on this board.
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