CASE BLUE/SECOND KHARKOV ISSUES

[ivanov]

I've tried to play my first medium size campaign - Case Blue as the Germans. I gave up after my attacks became completely ineffective in mid August of 1942. I had for example situations, when two Panzer Divisions were attacking a Soviet infantry division ( my morale and supply were good ), the enemy was not entrenched but the Soviets were managining to hold or they were merely retreating. At this stage of the war ( until the autumn ), the Germans should be able to easily overrun the Soviets in the open. Also, during the first two months of the campaign, I destroyed in few big kessel battles, about 15 Soviet tank corps. I thought I could expect some realistic OOB, because in the summer of 1942, there were no more than 20 Soviet Tank corps on the entire Eastern Front.

Kharkov 1942 from the Lost Battles expansion looked promising and I was expecting an action packed, intense, short battle. Unfortunately the scenario has only 6 turns but there is mud during the second and third turn, so there is little or no action during that time. The only thing that happenes, is that the units become more entrenched, so it is more difficult to achieve breakthrough, when finally the weather improves. I don't even think that's it's historical, because I don't recal that the weather was hampering the operations during that battle.

I am an experienced gamer but new to WITE, so maybe there is something that I'm missing. However I'm pretty sure, that mud conditions during 30% of a short scenario is just a bad design, which kills a potentialy fun battle.

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: katukov

I've tried to play my first medium size campaign - Case Blue as the Germans. I gave up after my attacks became completely ineffective in mid August of 1942. I had for example situations, when two Panzer Divisions were attacking a Soviet infantry division ( my morale and supply were good ), the enemy was not entrenched but the Soviets were managining to hold or they were merely retreating. At this stage of the war ( until the autumn ), the Germans should be able to easily overrun the Soviets in the open. Also, during the first two months of the campaign, I destroyed in few big kessel battles, about 15 Soviet tank corps. I thought I could expect some realistic OOB, because in the summer of 1942, there were no more than 20 Soviet Tank corps on the entire Eastern Front.

Kharkov 1942 from the Lost Battles expansion looked promising and I was expecting an action packed, intense, short battle. Unfortunately the scenario has only 6 turns but there is mud during the second and third turn, so there is little or no action during that time. The only thing that happenes, is that the units become more entrenched, so it is more difficult to achieve breakthrough, when finally the weather improves. I don't even think that's it's historical, because I don't recal that the weather was hampering the operations during that battle.

I am an experienced gamer but new to WITE, so maybe there is something that I'm missing. However I'm pretty sure, that mud conditions during 30% of a short scenario is just a bad design, which kills a potentialy fun battle.

Played Case Blue against a human opponent, we're the same level. Didn't bother with Stalingrad but the operations in the Caucasus where quite successful, though got bogged down at the gates of Grozny. The NM shouldn't be an issue; what settings against the AI did you use?

Kharkov '42, also against my PBEM, yes, the scenario might seem a bit short; but the ops didn't last more than 6 weeks. Can't recall if there was a 2-3 turn mud period. The result was historical; breakthroughs but sealed them off once the reinforcements arrived. Can run a test against you, whatever side you want to play.

Klink, Oberst

[loki100]

Played Case Blue against a human opponent, we're the same level. Didn't bother with Stalingrad but the operations in the Caucasus where quite successful, though got bogged down at the gates of Grozny. The NM shouldn't be an issue; what settings against the AI did you use?

Kharkov '42, also against my PBEM, yes, the scenario might seem a bit short; but the ops didn't last more than 6 weeks. Can't recall if there was a 2-3 turn mud period. The result was historical; breakthroughs but sealed them off once the reinforcements arrived. Can run a test against you, whatever side you want to play.

Klink, Oberst

Since I was the Soviet in both of those games [8D], some observations.

Last time I'd played a simulation of Kharkov was the old SPI game (which rather dates me), that was a wonderful roller coaster, usually ending in a Soviet disaster but with the chance for a major victory. I think there is a problem with the smaller scenarios (Mars is another), in that they become controlled puzzles since WiTE is designed around a larger map to gain an overall balance. So I too found this version of Kharkov a wee bit disappointing, too much mud really limited the axis counterstroke.

Blue is good. One problem at the start is it really models the disorganisation of the Soviet southern armies in that period. Apart from around Voronezh, and to a lesser extent in the south, all you can do is fall back (not by choice but because most units are not combat capable). But you can build a powerful defense around Voronezh and that in turn presents the German with a real dilemna. If he screens and sends the Panzers east, then immediately his line will start to stretch, if he takes the time to really hammer that sector I suspect he won't have time to really push east.

Klaus did a good job preventing me from regaining control, so I think that is the key, you've got to leverage that early gain and keep the Soviets off balance. He got a marginal victory due to a large Kessel just south of Stalingrad (I'd been too busy beating up passing Rumanians to pay proper attention).

Going back to the comment about Mars above. If you want to learn about the problems for both sides in breaking well defended lines its a good scenario. But in truth, the scale limits the game. I was making 2-4 high CV attacks a turn to slowly open up the axis lines. I should perhaps have gone for more low odds attacks (ie the historic approach) but I think I would have worn down my army first.

I'm finding the larger scenarios great fun and the smaller scale ones just don't seem to work - I think because the nature of the WiTE engine is that it doesn't (rightly) really simulate the dynamics of a clash at German army-Soviet front level.

[ivanov]

If it comes to Case Blue, this is what I mean:

http://imageshack.us/a/img203/3779/ueo9.png


The Soviet unit shoud be routed, given the odds. At this stage of campaign, the Soviet AI places the divisions in rows, one after another, so any significant German drive towards the distant objectives is impossible.


Herr Klink - I'd love to play a test game ( my first against the human opponent ) [:)]

[Gabriel B.]

Atack with 16 fresh infantry divisions on a 3 hex front , than drive a panzer army through.
[:)]

well at lest that is what I did .

[ivanov]

ORIGINAL: Gabriel B.

Atack with 16 fresh infantry divisions on a 3 hex front , than drive a panzer army through.
[:)]

well at lest that is what I did .

The problem is, that the 1942 Panzer Divisions should be able to easily overrun the Soviet infantry given their superior tactics and experience. At that time, the Soviets were just at the beginning of their learning curve, while the Whermancht was still highly effective ( especially selected panzer units ).