initial Japanese factory damage

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geofflambert
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initial Japanese factory damage

Post by geofflambert »

Regarding the following excerpt from Numdydar's Production Primer, how do the experienced players feel about this? In principle I don't want to go into the editor and do anything like this and wouldn't if my opponent objects. Players from both sides please comment.

BEFORE STARTING A GAME AS JAPAN
I strongly suggest that regardless of whether you are playing against the AI or a PBEM game, open up
the editor and repair all of Japan’s R&D factories. I have not been able to find any reason these should
be all damaged at the start of the game. Japan‘s research just did not suddenly start up once Japan was
at war with the Allies. If this was done for play balance, I see no reason for this ‘balance’ given the
current state of how R&D now works in the game. Maybe this was needed when the game was first
released as WitP, but it certainly is not needed now.

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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by Numdydar »

Thanks for bringing this up. I would be very interested myself in what everyone's opnion is.
 
To set the stage, remember it takes 30 fully repaired R&D factories to garrentee the 1 point/day towards advancement and you need 100 points to advance a single month. As all of Japan's R&D factories are well below this number, I feel the effect repairing them all will have is minimual at best. Especially since as soon as you expand a single point, you lose any chance of gaining a point towards the 100 you need to advance.
 
As an example, if you have 5 R&D factories at the start of the game that are fully repaired, then on average you will get approximately a 17% per day to get a single point (5 factories/30 days). So every 5-6 days you should get 1 point towards the 100 you need. So in about 2 years you will get a one month adavance. Again this assumes no additional expansion of those factories.
 
So to me this would have zero effect on the game. Even if you expamded the factories for planes in 44/45 they still would not start getting repaired untill 42/43 since any repair over two years ahead has an almost zero chance of repair. So even with this change, there is no way Japan is going to have '44 aircraft in '42 [:)]
 
But like I said, I would really like to see the other viewpoints are too.  
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Chickenboy
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
BEFORE STARTING A GAME AS JAPAN
I strongly suggest that regardless of whether you are playing against the AI or a PBEM game, open up
the editor and repair all of Japan’s R&D factories.

My opinion is that this would seriously upset the timeframes for airframe / engine R&D to the detriment of the Allied player.

There are several G4M2, Ki-84a and other 'advanced' aircraft that start off damaged. With the existing structure, they *stay* damaged until the date nears the availability date. Then they repair on a progressive basis.

Starting all damaged R&D factories as repaired (and therefore fully functional) will immediately begin producing R&D points towards these planes / engines. What would have otherwise become available in early 1944 may become available in late 1942.

Uh-uh. Too otherworldly for too little IJ cost.
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
BEFORE STARTING A GAME AS JAPAN
I strongly suggest that regardless of whether you are playing against the AI or a PBEM game, open up
the editor and repair all of Japan’s R&D factories.

My opinion is that this would seriously upset the timeframes for airframe / engine R&D to the detriment of the Allied player.

There are several G4M2, Ki-84a and other 'advanced' aircraft that start off damaged. With the existing structure, they *stay* damaged until the date nears the availability date. Then they repair on a progressive basis.

Starting all damaged R&D factories as repaired (and therefore fully functional) will immediately begin producing R&D points towards these planes / engines. What would have otherwise become available in early 1944 may become available in late 1942.

Uh-uh. Too otherworldly for too little IJ cost.

I'm not sure it would be that dramatic, but it would be something...

Not to mention the earlier models being easier to research, as well as their successors. The long upgrade chains of the Zero and Oscar in particular. Granted, the IJ player can get these fairly quickly if they work for it, but this would remove an initial hurdle to that effort that doesn't seem to be an insignificant one.
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Chickenboy
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
BEFORE STARTING A GAME AS JAPAN
I strongly suggest that regardless of whether you are playing against the AI or a PBEM game, open up
the editor and repair all of Japan’s R&D factories.

My opinion is that this would seriously upset the timeframes for airframe / engine R&D to the detriment of the Allied player.

There are several G4M2, Ki-84a and other 'advanced' aircraft that start off damaged. With the existing structure, they *stay* damaged until the date nears the availability date. Then they repair on a progressive basis.

Starting all damaged R&D factories as repaired (and therefore fully functional) will immediately begin producing R&D points towards these planes / engines. What would have otherwise become available in early 1944 may become available in late 1942.

Uh-uh. Too otherworldly for too little IJ cost.

I'm not sure it would be that dramatic, but it would be something...

Not to mention the earlier models being easier to research, as well as their successors. The long upgrade chains of the Zero and Oscar in particular. Granted, the IJ player can get these fairly quickly if they work for it, but this would remove an initial hurdle to that effort that doesn't seem to be an insignificant one.

I'm writing from work, so can't verify the specifics. But I recall a Ki-84a factory that starts out at something like 15(45), with a readiness date of 1/44.

OK, so fully repaired on December 7, 1941, this factory would produce 30 research points per month, right? Takes 3 months to produce 100 R&D points and therefore bring production forward one month.

So, December 1941-January 15, 1943 = 13.5 months @ 30 points/ month = 405 points = 4 months acceleration.

So, just by repairing this one Frank factory, you'll have produced enough R&D points in the first 13.5 months of the war to pull this important plane forward to 9/43 availability (from 1/44). That's assuming NO other research done on the Frank-a (RIIIGHT...[;)]) and no engine bonus application either.

Yeah, it's a big deal.
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SuluSea
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by SuluSea »

To each his own but since opinions are asked not a big fan.. . We have 77 R&D facilities and as it stands can accelerate targeted airframes at a pretty decent clip. The size 55 KI-84a Frank due to arrive in '44 sticks out. Without any additional bonuses this will save the side one player too much supply IMO.

Take this with a grain of salt because I searched for the thread and couldn't find it but I seem to remember a thread on starting damaged facilities a few years ago and the developers were against changing it and defending the system as it stood. .
"There’s no such thing as a bitter person who keeps the bitterness to himself.” ~ Erwin Lutzer
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SuluSea
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by SuluSea »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



I'm writing from work, so can't verify the specifics. But I recall a Ki-84a factory that starts out at something like 15(45), with a readiness date of 1/44.





Hello Andre, just checked the specifics are

Ki-84a 0/55 readiness date 4/44
Ki-84b 0/15 readiness date 3/45
"There’s no such thing as a bitter person who keeps the bitterness to himself.” ~ Erwin Lutzer
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geofflambert
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by geofflambert »

I'm not so much interested in bringing aircraft forward sooner as producing more of the better planes available earlier anyway, like Zeros and Tojos for instance. I plan on cancelling the development of many of those late war aircraft anyway and either converting their R&D to earlier models or to production or maybe just mothball them for a while. I don't see realism in producing '44 aircraft in '42. Think I'll just stay out of the editor.

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geofflambert
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by geofflambert »

ORIGINAL: SuluSea



Hello Andre, just checked the specifics are

Andre? Is that Andre the Giant Chickenboy? Or did you perhaps have dinner with Chickenboy? I trust it wasn't fried.

Amoral
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by Amoral »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I'm writing from work, so can't verify the specifics. But I recall a Ki-84a factory that starts out at something like 15(45), with a readiness date of 1/44.

OK, so fully repaired on December 7, 1941, this factory would produce 30 research points per month, right? Takes 3 months to produce 100 R&D points and therefore bring production forward one month.

It's an even bigger deal than you think. If I had a full repaired ki-84 factory at game start, I would produce 500 engines (in order to double research through the engine bonues) as soon as possible. To the point of halting carrier production if need be.

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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
ORIGINAL: SuluSea



Hello Andre, just checked the specifics are

Andre? Is that Andre the Giant Chickenboy? Or did you perhaps have dinner with Chickenboy? I trust it wasn't fried.

You forgot about the seal. Fried seal-sounds like something out of your Gornian cookbookery.
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



I'm writing from work, so can't verify the specifics. But I recall a Ki-84a factory that starts out at something like 15(45), with a readiness date of 1/44.





Hello Andre, just checked the specifics are

Ki-84a 0/55 readiness date 4/44
Ki-84b 0/15 readiness date 3/45

Danke, SuluSea.
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Numdydar
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by Numdydar »

Interesting discussion as always [:)]. So let work out exactly how this would play out in a game.
 
The Frank uses the Ha-45 engine which is not available until 9/43. Since engines factories all start out fully repaired, (I still see no reason that the plane R&D ones should not be too) they will be accelerated from the start. There is a single factory making these engines that starts as a 30(0). So about every 3.5 months there will be an advance of the engine availability. So about 3 months/year on average. So by 12/42, the engine will be available on 6/43. Some time around April '43 you can start producing 30 Ha-35 engines/month. So I seriously doubt that the 500 engines needed for the extra bonus will happen before the plane is available.
 
As far as the plane itself goes, For all pratical purposes the game maxes out at 30 R&D factories. Anything over this will not provide and additional bonuses. So, just like the engine, the plane will advance at the same rate. So the engine and plane ahould be available around the same time of April '43. So a whopping 5 months early [:)]. In my game where the factories were NOT repaired at the start, I got the Frank a version in June '43. A three month difference from historical. Somehow, I do not think getting this two months eariler than I was able to is a game changer.
 
So let's look at the Zero line since that is where the major impact of R&D can be felt.
 
The A6M3 is the first in the line and starts with a single 24 R&D factory. Assuming this starts repaired, we have a 80% chance/day to get a point. Since the availability of the plane is 6/42 it is impossible with or without the factory being repaired at the start that the plane availability will be accelerated earlier than May '42. But some people would run through the upgrade path and put all the Zero factories to the A6M8 version since they are all fully repaired. This would add the extra 3 for the A6M5 so you could have 27 fully functioning A6M8 factories from the start. The A6M8 also uses the Ha-33 engine of wich you start with 166 in the pool and making 65/month. So it will be a while before the magic 500 is reached. Especially since there are other planes that use the same engine. Of course the downside of this option is that ALL the rest of the Zero line will come out on the historical date and not be accelerated at all. Of course you could switch factories around , but then they would be damaged, etc. So not much gain there.
 
To make things simple, we will say that you will get 30 points/month towards acceleration for the A6M8 from the beginning. So about 3 months acceleration/year. 12/42 availability 5/45, 12/43 availability 2/45, 12/44 you get the plane. About 9 months early. In my primer, I showed how to get it six months early with no R&D factories repaired.
 
If you use the full path of the Zeros and accelerate each model in turn as in the primer, the factories being repaired at the start will not matter since you are waithing for each model in turn to be accelerated instead of going for the last one as above. By the time the A6M3 is close to availability, most Japanese players have already expanded those factories anyway to take the full advantage of the accelerating process. Most of the other planes types that you actually want have three or less models which drasticly slows down the acceleration process for the later models, wheter the factories are repaired or not.
 
According to my modeling, starting with the R&D factories fully repaired gives about a month (or at most two) for all planes from what you can do when they are not repaired. If that is considered a game breaking advantage, I will have to disagree. Simply because as soon as you expand one the acceleration stops. I would guess most Japanese players expand and change R&D factories at the start (I know I would [:)]) which stops the acceleration. As Japan, I know I would not want to have just 24 R&D factories tied up for the whole game just to get the A6M8 a few months earlier than I could by expanding the factory and leaving it assigned to the A6M3.
 
The bottom line is that the engine R&D factories start fully repaired so where is the historical reason the plane R&D factories should not. As people in this forum discuss endlessly the historical nature of this weapon, plane, etc., where is the historical justification for this modeling of damaged factories? If it is a game mechnic, then that is fine, but then either the engines should start damaged too or the plane ones should be repaired. Or historical justification of the way it is. No one to date (at least none I have seem and I have asked before) as explained this modeling. It would be nice to know why it was done this way.[:)]
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by witpqs »

Geoff,

Just a comment on perspective - some things in the game give a certain impression if you think of them too literally. What's really happening is that the game has certain mechanisms, and the scenarios are designed to attempt to yield the desired environment using those mechanisms. So, it isn't literally 'damaged factories', etc. Instead it's just a way to use the program's mechanisms to create the environment that the scenario designer intended.

Even though your initial query has been well answered I'm taking the time to say this because it applies to a whole bunch of things in the game. An example is the 'super E' problem whereby some IJN E class ships were super duper ASW platforms compared to their real life capabilities. this resulted from artifacts of the way the game engine ASW routines work. Babes fixed this by realigning the weapons on those ships so that, when combined with the game engine, the results are much closer to the actual capabilities. As a result, the ship display might look like the weapons layout is weird, but the results achieved are much more accurate. You'll see other examples as you go through the game where something does not look 'literally' accurate, but the results achieved are more accurate.
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by obvert »

To have R n D that the Japanese player can control is a fairly big plus as it works now. There is no need for more. As a game feature it's very fun and it's one of the reasons I've really enjoyed playing the Japanese side, but it's far too easy as is to get planes very early. Thinking in some kind of realistic (historical) terms, why are we getting any planes early at all?

I love it because I may get to try out planes that never made it into combat, but it's certainly odd that when I play Japan I can get a plane 6-12 months ahead of schedule while if i play the Allies I sit and wait for P-51Ds until late 44.



"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You'll see other examples as you go through the game where something does not look 'literally' accurate, but the results achieved are more accurate.

Wish night bombing could be figured out to lessen the effect on precise targets, against CAP fighters and really against anything but manpower.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by Numdydar »

ORIGINAL: obvert

To have R n D that the Japanese player can control is a fairly big plus as it works now. There is no need for more. As a game feature it's very fun and it's one of the reasons I've really enjoyed playing the Japanese side, but it's far too easy as is to get planes very early. Thinking in some kind of realistic (historical) terms, why are we getting any planes early at all?

I love it because I may get to try out planes that never made it into combat, but it's certainly odd that when I play Japan I can get a plane 6-12 months ahead of schedule while if i play the Allies I sit and wait for P-51Ds until late 44.

Can you please provide details on how you can get a plane 12 months in advance as the best i have been able to do is six [:(]
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by Numdydar »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Geoff,

Just a comment on perspective - some things in the game give a certain impression if you think of them too literally. What's really happening is that the game has certain mechanisms, and the scenarios are designed to attempt to yield the desired environment using those mechanisms. So, it isn't literally 'damaged factories', etc. Instead it's just a way to use the program's mechanisms to create the environment that the scenario designer intended.

Even though your initial query has been well answered I'm taking the time to say this because it applies to a whole bunch of things in the game. An example is the 'super E' problem whereby some IJN E class ships were super duper ASW platforms compared to their real life capabilities. this resulted from artifacts of the way the game engine ASW routines work. Babes fixed this by realigning the weapons on those ships so that, when combined with the game engine, the results are much closer to the actual capabilities. As a result, the ship display might look like the weapons layout is weird, but the results achieved are much more accurate. You'll see other examples as you go through the game where something does not look 'literally' accurate, but the results achieved are more accurate.

I assume this reply was meant for me and if so thank you for the explaination.
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

ORIGINAL: obvert

To have R n D that the Japanese player can control is a fairly big plus as it works now. There is no need for more. As a game feature it's very fun and it's one of the reasons I've really enjoyed playing the Japanese side, but it's far too easy as is to get planes very early. Thinking in some kind of realistic (historical) terms, why are we getting any planes early at all?

I love it because I may get to try out planes that never made it into combat, but it's certainly odd that when I play Japan I can get a plane 6-12 months ahead of schedule while if i play the Allies I sit and wait for P-51Ds until late 44.

Can you please provide details on how you can get a plane 12 months in advance as the best i have been able to do is six [:(]

Lots and lots of dedication. This shouod especially be possible for upgrade models, such as in the Zero, Oscar, Tojo lines, etc.

A common method of getting the A6M5 early is to go through the Rufe first.
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RE: initial Japanese factory damage

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
ORIGINAL: witpqs

Geoff,

Just a comment on perspective - some things in the game give a certain impression if you think of them too literally. What's really happening is that the game has certain mechanisms, and the scenarios are designed to attempt to yield the desired environment using those mechanisms. So, it isn't literally 'damaged factories', etc. Instead it's just a way to use the program's mechanisms to create the environment that the scenario designer intended.

Even though your initial query has been well answered I'm taking the time to say this because it applies to a whole bunch of things in the game. An example is the 'super E' problem whereby some IJN E class ships were super duper ASW platforms compared to their real life capabilities. this resulted from artifacts of the way the game engine ASW routines work. Babes fixed this by realigning the weapons on those ships so that, when combined with the game engine, the results are much closer to the actual capabilities. As a result, the ship display might look like the weapons layout is weird, but the results achieved are much more accurate. You'll see other examples as you go through the game where something does not look 'literally' accurate, but the results achieved are more accurate.

I assume this reply was meant for me and if so thank you for the explaination.
It was meant for everybody, but I addressed it to Geoff to try and be clear that it was a comment about his initial concern/question and not any of the answers that had come forth.
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