OT: Great Books Out of Print

[GaryChildress]

Every now and then I run across a great book that is out of print and it just sort of surprises me that it is out of print. One example that has always irked me is Conway's All the world's fighting ships series. It should be a standard for anyone interested in Naval history and because of that I would think it would stay in print practically forever. To me having Conway's out of print is almost like doing an Amazon search for the Bible and discovering that no one prints it anymore. I mean what is the matter with the book industry in our contemporary world? How can Conway's be out of print? We're talking about a book which should be on the short list of anyone doing research in Naval History. It just sort of irks me that I have to go out and find a beaten up used copy for $200.00 of a book which, in my opinion, should be available at any Barnes and Noble. It wouldn't be such an astonishing thing if there were other books out there with the same information but as far as I'm aware there aren't any! There are books out about the British Navy or the Japanese Navy etc but nothing comprehensive like Conway's which covers all the navies of the world. I just don't get it... [:(]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Every now and then I run across a great book that is out of print and it just sort of surprises me that it is out of print. One example that has always irked me is Conway's All the world's fighting ships series. It should be a standard for anyone interested in Naval history and because of that I would think it would stay in print practically forever. To me having Conway's out of print is almost like doing an Amazon search for the Bible and discovering that no one prints it anymore. I mean what is the matter with the book industry in our contemporary world? How can Conway's be out of print? We're talking about a book which should be on the short list of anyone doing research in Naval History. It just sort of irks me that I have to go out and find a beaten up used copy for $200.00 of a book which, in my opinion, should be available at any Barnes and Noble. It wouldn't be such an astonishing thing if there were other books out there with the same information but as far as I'm aware there aren't any! There are books out about the British Navy or the Japanese Navy etc but nothing comprehensive like Conway's which covers all the navies of the world. I just don't get it... [:(]

Look at what you wrote. A $200 retail book (wholesale maybe $140?) sitting on the shelf for months eating working capital. That's not the business model for B&N. The book industry works on supply and demand same as any and few people in the world demand any book at $200.

[GaryChildress]

I'm looking at what I wrote and I'm sorry but I don't see a thing wrong with it. I see a lot of cheesy war books out there in print while some real gems aren't. I stand by my words. [:'(]

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I'm looking at what I wrote and I'm sorry but I don't see a thing wrong with it. I see a lot of cheesy war books out there in print while some real gems aren't. I stand by my words. [:'(]

OK. But B&N has scanner data and knows exactly, to the unit, what turns and what doesn't. They also know their cost of capital. They have rooms of consumer research about what the average ring is by store, what categories turn, what books their customers are waiting for. You call them "cheesy war books", but they sell. Your book doesn't. Capitalism.

[GaryChildress]

I don't think this is necessarily so much about Capitalism as it is about the shape our society is in. However, I suppose this is nothing new for the most part. Alien abductions sell, real science and scholarship maybe not as much. Such is life I suppose.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Every now and then I run across a great book that is out of print and it just sort of surprises me that it is out of print. One example that has always irked me is Conway's All the world's fighting ships series. It should be a standard for anyone interested in Naval history and because of that I would think it would stay in print practically forever. To me having Conway's out of print is almost like doing an Amazon search for the Bible and discovering that no one prints it anymore. I mean what is the matter with the book industry in our contemporary world? How can Conway's be out of print? We're talking about a book which should be on the short list of anyone doing research in Naval History. It just sort of irks me that I have to go out and find a beaten up used copy for $200.00 of a book which, in my opinion, should be available at any Barnes and Noble. It wouldn't be such an astonishing thing if there were other books out there with the same information but as far as I'm aware there aren't any! There are books out about the British Navy or the Japanese Navy etc but nothing comprehensive like Conway's which covers all the navies of the world. I just don't get it... [:(]

warspite1

I'm looking at what you wrote too. Sounds to me like you were simply letting off some (totally understandable) frustration - nothing wrong in that. As you say, Conways is a brilliant, one-stop guide, to all the navies of the world.

I got my first copy of 1922-1946 for about £30 second-hand, with the jacket ripped and faded. Hard back books in bad condition are really annoying, so I eventually bought new from Amazon a few years back, but they had trouble getting it (it took months) and cost considerably more.

I have had similar frustrations in the past. I did not buy 3rd Axis, 4th Ally back in the early 90's because I could not afford the £30 or whatever it was. Now, if I want to buy it second-hand its £121 or £511 new on Amazon...no way can I pay that. Frustrating.

[RogerJNeilson]

Not everyone's cup of tea but I love ebooks and ereaders.

The cost of books that are in danger of being out of print or actually out of print is almost exclusively the physical process of printing then the distribution costs. The book 'writing' has already been paid for.

Publishers could (but often don't want to) sell digitised copies that take up next to no space, eat up little or no capital.....

So why don't they?

Roger

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Every now and then I run across a great book that is out of print and it just sort of surprises me that it is out of print. One example that has always irked me is Conway's All the world's fighting ships series. It should be a standard for anyone interested in Naval history and because of that I would think it would stay in print practically forever. To me having Conway's out of print is almost like doing an Amazon search for the Bible and discovering that no one prints it anymore. I mean what is the matter with the book industry in our contemporary world? How can Conway's be out of print? We're talking about a book which should be on the short list of anyone doing research in Naval History. It just sort of irks me that I have to go out and find a beaten up used copy for $200.00 of a book which, in my opinion, should be available at any Barnes and Noble. It wouldn't be such an astonishing thing if there were other books out there with the same information but as far as I'm aware there aren't any! There are books out about the British Navy or the Japanese Navy etc but nothing comprehensive like Conway's which covers all the navies of the world. I just don't get it... [:(]

warspite1

I'm looking at what you wrote too. Sounds to me like you were simply letting off some (totally understandable) frustration - nothing wrong in that. As you say, Conways is a brilliant, one-stop guide, to all the navies of the world.

I got my first copy of 1922-1946 for about £30 second-hand, with the jacket ripped and faded. Hard back books in bad condition are really annoying, so I eventually bought new from Amazon a few years back, but they had trouble getting it (it took months) and cost considerably more.

I have had similar frustrations in the past. I did not buy 3rd Axis, 4th Ally back in the early 90's because I could not afford the £30 or whatever it was. Now, if I want to buy it second-hand its £121 or £511 new on Amazon...no way can I pay that. Frustrating.

Hi Warspite,

I suppose this is a bit of venting on my part. Thank you for understanding. Just paid 80.00 for a used copy of "Merchant Ships 1942" by Talbot-Booth. From what I gather the book is a pretty essential and comprehensive encyclopedia on Merchant ships in 1942, including basic specs and line drawings, which I can use for creating ship art for WITP. What an unbelievably valuable resource for anyone interested in WW2, a list of all the world's merchant ships of the time! And yet this great book is slowly disappearing from existence in our world. It seems lately that almost every really great book I'm after turns out to be out of print. These aren't one time hot cake specials or fad books. These are unique and well researched books which include volumes of useful information which is largely unavailable anywhere else out there. I wouldn't be complaining if there were other sources for their information but it seems like vast amounts of useful information is being allowed to fade away permanently from the public domain. Maybe some publisher out there will revisit Conway's or Talbot-Booth's books but it doesn't appear like it's going to happen any time soon. Not much I can do about it but it just seems a shame to see these relative masterpieces disappear. [:(]

[RogerJNeilson]

If they are not goong to continue printing then they should release copyright so people could digitise them as needed.

Roger

[GaryChildress]

I agree. It seems like digitizing a book which has already been written and researched shouldn't be that cost prohibitive. And if people want to do it themselves for books out of print, the more the merrier. Personally I still prefer physical copies, ereaders are inconvenient for me when I'm cross comparing pages or jotting down little notes and stuff like that and they seem to strain my eyes a bit more. But that's maybe mostly due to not being familiarized with how ereaders work. I'm just not all that comfortable with them. But I'd rather see these books digitized and available to the public than not at all.

[RogerJNeilson]

I know what you mean, but they are also therefore readable on a computer screen, therefore even easier to use.

Roger

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

I know what you mean, but they are also therefore readable on a computer screen, therefore even easier to use.

Roger

In the final analysis ereaders probably are a bit more convenient to use because you can more easily put in book-marks, comments and stuff like that. Like I say it's probably more of a habit thing with me. I just haven't gotten myself familiarized with the medium yet and I still feel a little awkward with it. I'm gong to break down one of these days and get a Kindle or something. Time to catch up with the 19th century crowd, lol!

[Don Bowen]

Really a toss up for me.

There's nothing like a printed book, a cup of coffee, and a desk to lean over. All my favorite reference books have coffee stains and broken spines!

But a digital work is so easy to search.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

I know what you mean, but they are also therefore readable on a computer screen, therefore even easier to use.

Roger

In the final analysis ereaders probably are a bit more convenient to use because you can more easily put in book-marks, comments and stuff like that. Like I say it's probably more of a habit thing with me. I just haven't gotten myself familiarized with the medium yet and I still feel a little awkward with it. I'm gong to break down one of these days and get a Kindle or something. Time to catch up with the 19th century crowd, lol!

Have read all the comments as this topic ripened. I realized in my initial response that you were frustrated and blowing off steam. But this issue with older, expensive, reference books is going to continue to be a thing--and worsen--as ebooks take over at an accelerating rate. I've been in lots of discussions of this over the past fifteen years. I come at it from multiple POVs. I used to be in marketing, so I fully understand why segmentation realities and retail facts fo life make it unlikely that a brick & mortar B&N store is going to carry the book you wanted. A tiny handful of the general public demands it, and fewer all the time as WWII fades into time. A $52 ribeye may be the best steak available, but McDonalds isn't going to offer it for sale. Wrong venue, wrong clientele.

I also come at it as someone who wrote a book and had its prospects ruined by mispricing. Despite my pleas and objective analysis submitted, the publisher insisted they couldn't make money at what I knew the demand price would be. So they sold it for what they claimed they needed, and it didn't sell. Closed loop. I have since taken rights back and sell it as an ebook only, and it sells, a little. I got a royalty check last week as a matter of fact. Publishing is a heartless business, and is under intense pressure to justify itself as the ebook era continues to unfold. The basket of services publishers offered and the hammerlock they had on the supply chain for centuries has been exploded in less than a single generation.

Third, books have always gone out of print. The vast majority get one print run and they're gone. How many novels from 1920 are for sale in that B&N store except the "classics"? This book is valuable to you; I understand that. But it isn't that valuable to many people. Reference libraries and the Library of Congress will always have old copies of it as long as the paper lasts (centuries.) But it isn't ever going to be a retail title again in paper form IMO.

Lastly, the question of why doesn't someone make an ebook of it? I suspect you know the answer. It may happen some day. But the transition from big, honking paper and ink tome to a couple of megs of bits is not only expensive, but also fraught with legal minefields. Books like this often have the copyright sold and move through multiple hands after the author dies or gives them up. Even if the book is not in print the rights are an asset, both in accounting terms and in possible future cash flow. If the rights holder wanted or could be persuaded, perhaps by a start-up firm, to license or sell the rights, the actual process of getting to an ebook in not trivial. Usually a book with lots of photos has to be destroyed (Xacto knife) to be scanned at an acceptable level of quality. Also, a pristine copy usually needs to be used in the destruction to satisfy the rights holder's desire that the ebook reflect the exact experience available from a new paper copy. For older books out of print for years this can be a challenge. And biggest hurdle of all is the labor costs themselves. Taking a large reference book apart and digitizing it is not unskilled work. Even though the file itself will only occupy cents-worth of storage in perpetuity the upfront labor has to be paid today for perhaps some revenue tomorrow. And how many folks still want this book in any form? What are the downstream marketing costs needed to reach the very small number who do and alert them to the ebook?

The technology for reading ebooks will continue to improve. And the generation in their teens now will be fine with 100% ebook reading. But the obstacles to converting the world's existing paper book inventory to digital, even if the legal hurdles can be negotiated, will still be high. (Maybe robots?)

We can only dream.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
I suppose this is a bit of venting on my part ...

You think YOU have something to vent about?

The last bookstore anywhere near my home became a Toys R Us!

[kaleun]

The last bookstore anywhere near my home became a Toys R Us!

Shudder.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
I suppose this is a bit of venting on my part ...

You think YOU have something to vent about?

The last bookstore anywhere near my home became a Toys R Us!

Toys R Us is hanging on by its toenails in the face of Amazon.

[Zigurat666]

WOW! 200 bucks? I've got three of them sitting on my shelf 1860-1905, 1906-1921 and 1922-1946 and they,re in pristine condition to boot!

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Every now and then I run across a great book that is out of print and it just sort of surprises me that it is out of print. One example that has always irked me is Conway's All the world's fighting ships series. It should be a standard for anyone interested in Naval history and because of that I would think it would stay in print practically forever. To me having Conway's out of print is almost like doing an Amazon search for the Bible and discovering that no one prints it anymore. I mean what is the matter with the book industry in our contemporary world? How can Conway's be out of print? We're talking about a book which should be on the short list of anyone doing research in Naval History. It just sort of irks me that I have to go out and find a beaten up used copy for $200.00 of a book which, in my opinion, should be available at any Barnes and Noble. It wouldn't be such an astonishing thing if there were other books out there with the same information but as far as I'm aware there aren't any! There are books out about the British Navy or the Japanese Navy etc but nothing comprehensive like Conway's which covers all the navies of the world. I just don't get it... [:(]

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
All my favorite reference books have coffee stains and broken spines!

Lol! You should see my 1966 Odyssey World Atlas! It looks like one of the dead sea scrolls! It's the oldest world atlass I have and still comes in a bit handy when I'm looking for the names of cities from WWII. In fact it's still the only atlass I have now that I think of it, other than the West Point Atlasses of WWII.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
All my favorite reference books have coffee stains and broken spines!

What are you? A cheapskate? No duct tape?