Niche game or undermarketed?

[henri51]

I have both DW and Endless Space, and IMHO DW is a better game. I have nothing against Steam, since I have as many games there as I do on Matrix (about 30 games each). I haven't played Endless Space for a long while, but I remember not playing it for very long before putting it aside. I only bought DW when the Shadows expansion came out, and I had not bought the original because I had the wrong impression that it was too much micromanagement (I never really got into MOO for that reason). Perhaps the advertisements should insist on the fact that one can automate AS MUCH of the game as one wishes - that is what I probably missed.What is difficult to convey in advertisements is how DW, contrary to most (if not all) other 4X games, is the wide variety of strategies possible, and that fast expansion is not always the best strategy and can even be fatal.

Perhaps a demo and a walkthrough tutorial with short fixed objectives could help a lot: for example a tutorial on how to find resources, one on how to colonize, one on how to prepare an invasion and so on (I could use some of them myself).

The videos are a GREAT help, but the problem may be to get potential buyers to look at them.What could be useful for beginners is a tight list of recommended tutorial videos and the order in which they should be watched. The problem is that this list could become obsolete very fast.

Henri

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: AstroCat
I'd bundle it up into a "gold" version of come kind, present it at a reasonable price and get this sucker up on Steam asap.

*facepalm*

[AstroCat]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: AstroCat
I'd bundle it up into a "gold" version of come kind, present it at a reasonable price and get this sucker up on Steam asap.

*facepalm*

You really don't think that would drive sales and awareness of this game in a very positive way? I am sure it would, 100%.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: AstroCat

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

ORIGINAL: AstroCat
I'd bundle it up into a "gold" version of come kind, present it at a reasonable price and get this sucker up on Steam asap.

*facepalm*

You really don't think that would drive sales and awareness of this game in a very positive way? I am sure it would, 100%.

It's been argued ad nauseum. It's not a good deal for Matrix and Code Force. Erik (et al) has discussed distribution with Steam and concluded it was not in their interest.

Regardless of your 100% certainty, Erik has examined the business prospects of Steam distribution with full knowledge of all the facts available to reach his decision. He is less certain. Unless you have new information, I suggest the topic join the all-too-fresh hole which is filled with horse-meat hamburger (not a European meat quality allusion) and broken, worn out whips.

[AstroCat]

Well being new to the DW scene, I was not aware it's an old discussion around here, although I did assume I couldn't have been the first to bring it up. Whatever works best for the success of DW is what I would support, although I'm still convinced Steam would be a great fit for a game like DW. But of course I'm just a player of the game and not anywhere close to those who have a real monetary vested stake in the game. So whatever works for them is best.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: AstroCat

Well being new to the DW scene, I was not aware it's an old discussion around here, although I did assume I couldn't have been the first to bring it up. Whatever works best for the success of DW is what I would support, although I'm still convinced Steam would be a great fit for a game like DW. But of course I'm just a player of the game and not anywhere close to those who have a real monetary vested stake in the game. So whatever works for them is best.

It's come up again and again and again. Here's one thread - there are many more. They all follow much the same pattern. Basically it starts with someone calling for Steam distribution and promising a veritable cornucopia of cash and sales. That's followed by people (usually me and a few others) asking for them to cite their sources and cost-benefit analyses. A few more pipe in about the alleged land of milk and honey that Steam is for gaming companies. Which is again confronted by calls for sources and plans. It goes back and forth with no sources cited, not a single profit analysis - and degrades into a flame war... and Erik finally locks the thread.

Not very interesting, unless you find assertions without any proof or analysis to be funny. In which case, they're an absolute gas.

[AstroCat]

I am not going to take the time to do your marketing research but I promise you there is a reason Steam is a success and boon for many indie and smaller game developers. If you look yourself you'll find some of the information you are looking for. And, the last thing I read they were still keeping an open mind towards Steam and other distribution sources, GoG perhaps.

Hint: try "steam indie game success" google search, or anything similar.

[historyis]

AstroCat, you are fighting against the orthodoxy of this board, because many of the members who are arguing against Steam don't like the service at all to begin with, so they would be very hard to convince that having that platform selling this game would be of benefit. For example, Kayoz was very critical of Steam as a platform in the past, and he is well within his rights to do so.

Some also mistake Steam and Steamworks, which are two related, but different things (one is the store where people want to buy the game instead of Matrix so that it is in their library), the other is if every copy of the game required Steam, which I don't think anyone is really arguing for).

I don't think anyone is saying that everyone should be forced to use Steam or any other digital platform. I think people just would like the option.

I used to be very much like Kayoz, and it was just a few years ago that I would have totally been on his side about having discs and the original files... and then I started using Steam a bit more and I've totally changed my mind about that particular service because it makes it easier to manage my library of games, expansions and DLC.

I don't know if Matrix is still selling their games in brick and mortar retail outlets, but if I am to believe Eurogamer about the percentage of profits that publishers generally get from selling in those locations (30% but that is for console titles), that seems like a much lower figure than the much bandied about ~70% that the publisher gets from Steam. If I took the LA Times/OnLive's word for it, the publisher is pulling in $27 from a $60 boxed retail game or 45%.

And I think the reason why people keep bringing up the impact on sales that just being on Steam has is due to the fact that there are many, many stories about sales figures for games that include numerical data. I am going to start with two for now since this is getting to be a long post for this thread. For instance, when you look at the first 6 months of sales for The Witcher 2, it sold 240,000 copies. 195K of those sales were from Steam. The other 45K were from GoG.com (which is run by the company that released the game and sold 35K of that remainder) and the other digital distribution sites, all of whom were selling it DRM-free. When given the choice, 81% of people chose to buy it from Steam over a DRM-free version, which in GoG.com's case was even more egregious because their version had additional content that the Steam version still does not even at this moment.

Or what about the story of Chris Park of Arcen Games talking about having AI War 2.0 picked up by Steam and Direct2Drive in October 2009 and that literally increased the revenues that the company made for the entire year by nearly 5 fold and allowed both him and Pablo Vega to quit their jobs and make games full time. And just last year he said that his company would not be able to survive if it wasn't for Steam.

AI War Fleet Command is a niche space title that Matrix distributes as well that isn't just doing a little bit of business... it is doing extremely well because of Steam. And given the fact that the revenues that Arcen is making on that game (especially those generated by the massive sales on the title they regularly have) is not only fueling development of additional content for that title but also partially funding new projects, why wouldn't someone who sees that happening for one developer in the Matrix stable, especially after you've also seen the initial sales figures for competing 4X games that were released relatively recently.

Of course, I am pretty sure that everything that I've just said has been said elsewhere on this forum so I am going to stop for the moment.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: AstroCat

I am not going to take the time to do your marketing research but I promise you there is a reason Steam is a success and boon for many indie and smaller game developers. If you look yourself you'll find some of the information you are looking for. And, the last thing I read they were still keeping an open mind towards Steam and other distribution sources, GoG perhaps.

Hint: try "steam indie game success" google search, or anything similar.

Maybe so, but then you lose customers like me who refuse to use STEAM and be forced to use online DRM to play my single player games. I like Matrix Games business model just like it is, I buy my game, type in my serial code and I play the game. No DRM checks, no not being able to play if I lose internet, no having to worry about Wi-Fi if I installed it to a laptop.

Also, I don't mind paying more if it means I'm not treated like a criminal even when I've done nothing wrong (IE Always Online DRM).

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: historyis
I used to be very much like Kayoz, and it was just a few years ago that I would have totally been on his side about having discs and the original files...

Just to clarify my position...

It's a business decision whether or not Matrix decides to use Steam. I don't have the market/business information necessary to comment on what's right or wrong with Matrix's decision. I'd prefer if they didn't - but my personal preference is irrelevant. They should do what is financially most rewarding for them and Code Force.

[FerretStyle]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Maybe so, but then you lose customers like me who refuse to use STEAM and be forced to use online DRM to play my single player games. I like Matrix Games business model just like it is, I buy my game, type in my serial code and I play the game. No DRM checks, no not being able to play if I lose internet, no having to worry about Wi-Fi if I installed it to a laptop.

Also, I don't mind paying more if it means I'm not treated like a criminal even when I've done nothing wrong (IE Always Online DRM).

Well... Steam doesn't require you to be online, so there goes that argument. Most games that aren't designed exclusively for Steam can be launched just by running the executable directly from the steamapps folder, too (alternately, you can launch it and then close Steam and keep playing).

I used to hate Steam, and then I spent 5 minutes figuring out how to fix the problems I had with it. Now it's great.

[historyis]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Maybe so, but then you lose customers like me who refuse to use STEAM and be forced to use online DRM to play my single player games. I like Matrix Games business model just like it is, I buy my game, type in my serial code and I play the game. No DRM checks, no not being able to play if I lose internet, no having to worry about Wi-Fi if I installed it to a laptop.

Also, I don't mind paying more if it means I'm not treated like a criminal even when I've done nothing wrong (IE Always Online DRM).

Again. If the game was on Steam, that doesn't mean you have to have anything to do with Steam. Steam the storefront, where SOME people would be able to buy it is separate from Steamworks.

In this scenario, your DRM-free version that you bought here at Matrix exists and always will. No one is suggesting denying you that version and you would be completely free to never use Steam. So in no way does a version being made available on Steam negatively affect your ability to play the game DRM-free because again, the game being on Steam does not automatically mean that it is also Steamworks.

Put it this way, when AI War and Unity of Command started being sold on Steam, Matrix and other digital retailers didn't suddenly start making you play those games on Steam. Most games that are on Steam are available in DRM-free versions (or use some other DRM scheme instead).

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
I'd prefer if they didn't

Now, just out of curiosity, if Matrix happened to one day make the business decision to make their titles available on Steam, but you never had to install it, use it or have any dealings with that business... it was just an additional venue that their games were available at, would you still find it objectionable and if so why?

Because I do understand the objection if you HAD to use Steam... there are a few games I won't buy because they are on Origin and I refuse use that service. But if you don't have to use Steam and someone else wants to, then how is that negatively affecting you and your enjoyment of your DRM-free version of these games.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: historyis
Now, just out of curiosity, if Matrix happened to one day make the business decision to make their titles available on Steam, but you never had to install it, use it or have any dealings with that business... it was just an additional venue that their games were available at, would you still find it objectionable and if so why?

Why not? I said I would prefer not to use Steam, but I did not put my foot down and absolutely refuse to purchase a game from a publisher/developer that chooses to use Steam. I do have some Steam games. All bought and paid for. I simply added no-Steam cracks, which is legal where I live.

If it's optional, I would take the non-Steam alternative, of course.

I'm not sure what you mean by "objectionable". If I don't have to deal with Steam - then why would it be objectionable? If you say that I must wear a black suit or whatever I choose - and I don't like black suits - then why would I bothered with the choice, much less if some people choose to wear a black suit?

ORIGINAL: historyis
But if you don't have to use Steam and someone else wants to, then how is that negatively affecting you and your enjoyment of your DRM-free version of these games.

My enjoyment would be unaffected. I wouldn't care. If others choose to shackle themselves to Steam out of choice, then so be it. I'd simply pay my money to whatever vendor is offering a Steam-free version.

[Ucchedavada]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Maybe so, but then you lose customers like me who refuse to use STEAM and be forced to use online DRM to play my single player games. I like Matrix Games business model just like it is, I buy my game, type in my serial code and I play the game. No DRM checks, no not being able to play if I lose internet, no having to worry about Wi-Fi if I installed it to a laptop.

Also, I don't mind paying more if it means I'm not treated like a criminal even when I've done nothing wrong (IE Always Online DRM).

Steam does not actually require you to be online, even for Steamworks enabled games. If you are offline, or simply do not wish to connect to the Steam servers (for whatever reason), then you can run Steam in offline mode. You only lose access to Steamworks features and other server-based features (chat, achievements, cloud saves, etc), but not your games.

[historyis]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

My enjoyment would be unaffected. I wouldn't care. If others choose to shackle themselves to Steam out of choice, then so be it. I'd simply pay my money to whatever vendor is offering a Steam-free version.

I think my confusion was due to the fact that when you said "I'd prefer if they didn't," it sounded like you were categorically stating that you preferred that they never have anything to do with selling on Steam rather than you preferred that they not force you to use it, and since I took your earlier statement as the former rather than latter, it made me curious about that stance.

Sometimes it is easy to read more into 5 words than are there, and if I have misinterpreted your feelings, then I apologize.

ORIGINAL: Ucchedavada

Steam does not actually require you to be online, even for Steamworks enabled games. If you are offline, or simply do not wish to connect to the Steam servers (for whatever reason), then you can run Steam in offline mode. You only lose access to Steamworks features and other server-based features (chat, achievements, cloud saves, etc), but not your games.

Again, the game being available on Steam would not prevent the current version of the game and its expansions from being sold here. It isn't a zero-sum game, a case of it being one or the other. It would be a state of both existing.

Now, is anyone troubled that the game has been out for almost 2 weeks and there are still no reviews up... reviews that would entice new players to buy this game while the price point is currently at its most appetizing?

[Buio]

ORIGINAL: AstroCat
I am not going to take the time to do your marketing research but I promise you there is a reason Steam is a success and boon for many indie and smaller game developers. If you look yourself you'll find some of the information you are looking for. And, the last thing I read they were still keeping an open mind towards Steam and other distribution sources, GoG perhaps.

Hint: try "steam indie game success" google search, or anything similar.

Of course it is easy to find indie game success stories, because there are so many games on Steam, and you google specifically for positives. But it's just a small percentage of the games actually on Steam. It doesn't mean your game will be an automatic success just because you put it on Steam.

And you know that Steam has a filter called "greenlight" to sort out indie games that don't have hype and popularity? Which means they only take in games that show a certain amount of following. Noble of Steam, not letting unknown rabble getting in. I mean all those games are probably bad just because they are unknown.

Here is a story about that. There are more, if you search for negatives.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JoolsWat ... 17/190704/

[invaderzim]

Is there any chance DW will come to Steam? There are some fairly complex and good strategy games like Unity of Command, Hearts of Iron and other Paradox titles that seem to have done well on Steam without any dumbing down.

[AstroCat]

I was suggesting "in addition to" not "in place of" for the selling of DW. I just can not see the downside of adding a game like this to Steam.

[Ucchedavada]

ORIGINAL: historyis

Again, the game being available on Steam would not prevent the current version of the game and its expansions from being sold here. It isn't a zero-sum game, a case of it being one or the other. It would be a state of both existing.

Oh, I'm not suggesting that DW should become (or would become) a Steam exclusive. I was merely pointing out that the online component is nowhere near as bad as Shark7 seemed to think.

ORIGINAL: Buio

And you know that Steam has a filter called "greenlight" to sort out indie games that don't have hype and popularity? Which means they only take in games that show a certain amount of following. Noble of Steam, not letting unknown rabble getting in. I mean all those games are probably bad just because they are unknown.

You might be interested in knowing that Gabe Newell agrees with you:
gamasutra.com/blogs/JoolsWatsham/20130417/190704/

[Osito]

ORIGINAL: AstroCat

I was suggesting "in addition to" not "in place of" for the selling of DW. I just can not see the downside of adding a game like this to Steam.

Ok, a simple what if:

Scenario 1:
Game is not on Steam.
Matrix sell 10 copies of DS at a profit of 1 unit per copy
Total Profit = 10 units

Scenario 2:
Game is on Steam and available elsewhere.
Matrix sell 0 copies of DS via non-Steam sources.
Matrix sell 10 copies of DS via Steam at a profit of 0.5 units per copy (Steam's cut being 0.5/copy)
Total Profit = 5 units

Yes, I made these numbers up, and this example is simplistic, but the point is that it's very easy to imagine scenarios in which selling on Steam as well as through other sources would reduce your profits. The point is that we do not have the information needed to make a judgement. Presumably Matrix do (I hope!).

Osito