Reserve Activations, over the top?

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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janh
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by janh »

ORIGINAL: Michael T
I just think it's totally nuts that disbanding an entire tier of the German command structure could be benificial in any way or form. But yet it is. Something is amiss.

Getting back on to Reserves.

In the past the German players in the main have been able to keep the Soviets off balance for longer periods in 1941 and this nulifies the reserve function as a Soviet army in disarray can't manage it. With little rule changes here and there its become harder and harder to keep Ivan off balance. So we see more games where the Soviets are able to regain composure earlier. Once that occurs is when the 'reserve' game really makes life much harder for the German players to get going again.

My concerns about this are as much about facing a challenging game when I play Soviet as anything else.

I have to read up on that game of Pelton's. I'd never have even thought of disbanding the Corps level HQs for fear of a total logistic or C&C breakdown. I re-read the rules, and logically it should work against you as you should miss more rolls??? If it's generally true that Corps HQ can disbanded on the defense without negatives but rather better SU commitment, can one drive this one step further and get rid of the Army level? If the C&C can be exploited like that, of course the whole reserves thing and everything else just follows the exploit.

When you say "Ivan of balance", what is the say "normal" course you'd want to tune the factors to?

What I am thinking is that there is rarely such phase in which the Germans outrun their supply and get stuck against solidifying Soviet resistance such as AGC faced pretty much during all of August and September at Smolensk, even being required to withdraw a bit. In game terms this would probably mean fort level 3 plus in that area after two months, and a hard time breaking this line to aim at something like the Bryansk/Vyasma pocket battles. Although, if I understand correctly, the Germans bypassed this solid line on the land bridge and the key breakthrus occurred in the Rshev and the Gomel areas, both of which where not fortified and fluid before (the former, because of the progress and forth and back fighting in the Valdai, the latter of course was the northern part of the Kiev line that had just evaporated). So the German made lemonade from lemons, using their superiority to stretch the Soviet lines and hit where they are weak.

I think this kind of thing is presently possible with WitE, though not many AARs show that an AGC that is not deprived of a PzKps for the Lvov can be stopped cold on the landbridge, or somewhere around. Even with the use of reserves, or what you can scrape together. At the moment it seems more like the first signs of solidifying and Axis slow down occur east of Rshev/Vyasma if not even closer to Moscow, rarely before Leningrad, and basically never in the south and south-center (which given the terrain is quite sensible). So basically the Barbarossa part, the 41 VC260 conditions are decided on a knife edge already. I think the strengthening could and should happen even earlier, such as it does if the German side makes mistakes and falls behind the plan.
It would be nice to see someone stop a very good Axis player with drum's and pipes somewhere cold for a month or two, like AGC. Maybe it doesn't happen because when playing Soviets, I/people are not risking enough on the landbridge with its poor open terrain? The Axis does never fall being behind supply enough? Or are Soviets/Soviet reinforcements overall too weak to recreate a feat like that?

So what's your take on that, in which phase should the going for Axis get harder, and should there be perhaps something like an even chance for both sides to either rush through without chance of solidifying lines, or even an equally fair chance that even a good Axis player should be able to get badly stuck somewhere way early of the summer goals?
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Flaviusx
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by Flaviusx »

Soviets don't get corps commands because this is what happened in real life; they dumped them. Realized very quickly they simply lacked the experienced officers to manage them.

When corps came back later on, they did so as maneuver formations rather than command elements. So the game presentation is correct. The question is if the mechanics follow. I'm not too terribly disturbed by Axis defenders streamlining their command and disbanding corps and whatnot. Soviet players have been disbanding HQs (and airbases and other stuff) from the getgo in 1941 for broadly similar reasons.

What does worry me is if this streamlining is actually better in offensive warfare. There ought to be a positive benefit to an elaborate command structure on the attack. If that's not the case...Houston, we have a problem.

Before anybody hits the panic or depression button (hi Ketza) there is at this moment no proof positive, no play experience at all that ditching corps in 1941 is the way to go. It's a theory. Somebody ought to put it into practice. Then we can evaluate. The same is true, btw, of the original topic. There's been a lot of handwaving here about how horrible reserves are but precious little AAR data to back it up.

Both these claims may be correct ones, but theory only gets you so far.
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by gradenko2k »

From trying to follow this thread, is my understanding correct that Corps-level HQs are being disbanded (in a defensive situation) because Army-level HQs will allow for more units to be "grouped together" for the purposes of reserve activations, and because Army-level HQs can accommodate more SUs, and that these two prior benefits allegedly outweigh the extra layer of rolls to pass activations in the first place?
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Michael T
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by Michael T »

Its a fact not a theory Flavius. look at the math. Reserve activations are clearly superior under the umbrella of a Army command structure.

I reiterate.

1. Army can command 18 to 30 CP, Corp 8. So all the army units pay less in MP for reserve activation. This affects die rolls and the number of battles that can be assisted and increases the range possible. Different Corp pay higher MP costs to support each other.

So Armies are better for reserve activation.

2. You can stick one great leader in the Army with a fab initiative rating (that's what is checked for reserve activation). Where as if you are using Corp you need 3 times as many leaders with great Initiative.

For me the only question that remains is the supply issue. But a simple examination of the reserve rules leads one to the conclusion that Armies are better at it than Corp. Hence my complaint about it being too good for Soviets in 1941. And why German players on the defensive wipe out the Corp tier.
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Flaviusx
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by Flaviusx »

Michael, I follow the logic as far as it goes. But the game is complex and the way things interact with each other is not always obvious by looking at any single game mechanic. Also, I am an old fashioned empiricist.

What is the right amount of reserve activity? If you go too far with this you risk making the defender a purely passive participant in an IGOUGO format. The game is, imo, as whole very offensively biased as is.
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by gingerbread »

There is a trick to activate the defending reserves with a hasty attack that, with a high INI leader, has a good chance to convert to a scouting attack. I'd say that the Germans would have the advantage here due to many more high INI leaders available.
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jack54
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by jack54 »

I like the annual roll modifier for the Soviets... it sounds like a decent quick fix.


Perhaps a German Army HQ should have to pass an Administration roll for units directly attached to it. If it fails it pays the doubling penalties as if there had been a lower corp HQ.

I don't know, I really like having corps, more commanders and stuff to shuffle around; it would be a shame if it's really broke.
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Helpless
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by Helpless »

Its a fact not a theory Flavius. look at the math. Reserve activations are clearly superior under the umbrella of a Army command structure.
...
So Armies are better for reserve activation.

This is not correct.

Example:
1. u-C-A-C-u
2. u-A-u

Activation costs are exactly the same in both cases and chances are higher in 1 as you will have higher chances to pass required initiative rolls. Besides if you are trying to go up AG or Front level activation costs are automatically getting higher.
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Michael T
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by Michael T »

I don't agree. If you have say 12 XX covering an area its better to have them all under one Army with one Army leader with a INT of 8 or 9.

Or you could have 3 Corp with 3 leaders maybe at 6 or 7 INT.

Its not like you get a chance at 6 D10 then 8 D10, its 6 D10, 8 D20.

I would rather take all my activation rolls at 8 or 9 D10, than 6 D10 then 8/9 D20.

Also MP makes a difference. You pay higher MP if you are one or more levels removed from the commanding HQ. So with an Army all 12 units pay the same MP. With the Corp's only 4 units will pay the same MP, the other 8 will pay a higher MP. Decreasing possible range and decreasing the chances to beat the MP die roll.

This is based on the RAW. If they are wrong then how about putting up the correct rule so we can figure it out?

If the RAW are wrong and you are paying the same MP regardless of C&C then I would think you are right. What is the actual rule?

Regardless I still say there are too many Soviet Reserve Activations in 1941.
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Michael T
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by Michael T »

Pavel,

The rules say a unit pays 3 x MP cost if under one Command. 4 x Cost if removed by one level. Are you saying the costs are actually the same regardless?

Also what is the additional cost for Mot and Inf, the rules say 8MP and 2MP respectively. From my bug post you say its different to that. What is it?
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by Helpless »

If the RAW are wrong and you are paying the same MP regardless of C&C then I would think you are right. What is the actual rule?

Michael, I've got too busy to answer Leo so he could correct manual. Reaction costs depend on the CC structure, but if your "command distance" is below 10% (ex. Corps under same army has 6%) you can assume that they are under the same HQ when reserve activation comes into play.

Difference is even higher when you deal with neighboring Armies. Or trying to activate reserve attached to AG or Front.

I'll try to answer in more details shortly.
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Helpless
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by Helpless »

Also what is the additional cost for Mot and Inf, the rules say 8MP and 2MP respectively. From my bug post you say its different to that. What is it?

+6 and +2
Regardless I still say there are too many Soviet Reserve Activations in 1941.

I can't comment much on this as it depends on particular situation. If you able to post a non-AI save with very high amount of Soviet activations we can probably take a look. IIRC, AI has some benefits when CC checks come into play.
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Michael T
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by Michael T »

Ok If this is the case then I would agree that the Corp structure is better for reserve activation. So that is a relief.

It means disbanding the Corp tier won't help you out in this situation (not withstanding the extra Manpower).

I guess Pelton and Co are basing their theory on the RAW. It will be good to get it up to date when you get time.

Thanks for you input [:)]
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Ok If this is the case then I would agree that the Corp structure is better for reserve activation. So that is a relief.

It means disbanding the Corp tier won't help you out in this situation (not withstanding the extra Manpower).

I guess Pelton and Co are basing their theory on the RAW. It will be good to get it up to date when you get time.

Thanks for you input [:)]

GHC has no issues in the first plase with reserve activations as you know from our game MT. Every single battle I had the max per battle. You had to attack each hex 3 to 5 times to get a win when you started attacking in late 42.
This tactic does not work any more as the ammo bug has been nerfed.
Meaning it would be next to imposible to move the GHC lines if they retreated during blizzard and dug in.

1. Reserve activations are not the benifit of disbanding Corp HQ for GHC as you know first hand. They are simply 100% guaranteed if things are set-up right. Again there is no need to test this as it has been proven on the battle field vs YOU and many others.
2. There are no - % to combat modifiers for units from one Corp helping another in the same army.
3. 2 to 3x the SU commitment. As I have pointed out more then once, poineer,tank ect are put in the divisions with arty/AA and others in AGHQ. Again proven in game now by JB A-game and many others now.
4. 400,000 more men. DoH

The reserve activations phase of defending only lasts so long the true benifits of disbanding Corp HQ's in normal games ( our was not normal) its 2-3 that really add up over time. The 10% might not seem like much or 12 SU's instead of 6, but how many battles out of say 30 per turn are close? 2 .0 to 1 through 2.5 to 1? Allot from my exp. Close to 20%, that means out of 30 attacks SHC loses another 6 per turn. Thats huge over 120 turns. about 700 battles.

This game is based on retreat loses. As GHC loses to SHC from 43-45 is reallya complete non-factor as SHC manpower and armament pools grow no matter what now because SHC easly can railout all but 30 arm pts.

The plus is GHC guns, men and moral saved from the 700 less retreats. This also causes SHC allot long to build moral over all.

There is no down side to supplies.

If I start up another game instead of disbanding a HQ or 2 per turn starting turn one I will do 20 the first turn.

Personally I do not see SHC reserve activations being an issue. You simply have to change tactics as GHC, your not going to be doing a bunch of mad dashes from August 41 -45.
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Peltonx
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Ok If this is the case then I would agree that the Corp structure is better for reserve activation. So that is a relief.

Is it the case based on Pelton vs MT?

You can not honestly say yes. When you attacked 1 hex 2 to 5 times how many times did I get activations? Every time? In the 5 to 8 hexes you attacked per turn?

If 100% is a bad %, I stick with 100%.




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Michael T
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by Michael T »

This has nothing to do with our game Pelton. In the end you were getting thrashed so bad it did not matter whether you got reserves or not. Actually I preferred it as it just meant more retreat losses for you [:D]

You do as you please. With your kind of game you need the 400K of extra bodies. I use a little more finesse [;)]

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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by swkuh »

To stay with the topic (reserves) it seems that some tweaking to the code might help, but there are tactics now that mitigate reserves. Bomb likely units, smoke 'em out attacks, tactical/strategic adjustments to avoid 'em, more reccon... any other ideas?

Another v2.0 wish list item. (But, think its too late for that.)

As I learn the game, I enjoy it more.
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Michael T
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by Michael T »

If you can get at a hole in the line, infiltrate with a mot regiment, just to prevent reserve activation.
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by swkuh »

Thanks, worth a try...
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RE: Reserve Activations, over the top?

Post by bomazz »

I believe the reserve action is fine. I have played several opponents that get reserve actions every battle, What no one has pointed out is it just takes a change of tactics. Load up infantry and deliberate attack. Reserve actions rout too. It will open up the carpet of defenders.

It will slow the tempo of your infantry. But if you are routing more units behind the lines no worries. I have evaporated entire rear areas with this tactic. the Panzer troops flow through and clean up.

Just my 2 cents
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