Battle of Bulge in the East

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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Dili
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Battle of Bulge in the East

Post by Dili »

Anyone made a scenario for this? if instead attacking at West Hitler decided to attack East.
Oberst_Klink
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RE: Battle of Bulge in the East

Post by Oberst_Klink »

Well, an interesting thought. There are 'What-if' variants, e.g. Guderian thought the whole operation 'Wacht am Rhein' was ridiculous and that the forces should be used to clear the salient or at least 'stabilize' the Vistula front and perhaps link up with the trapped AG North in the Kurland pocket where AG North was trapped. One also could question 'Unternehmen Konrad' aka 'Frühlingserwachen' in Hungary with a much depleted 6ths SS Pz Armee after the Ardennes gamble.

I quote from Wiki; though I have read about Guderian's thoughts somewhere:

Impact on the Eastern Front
On the eve of the Soviet Vistula–Oder Offensive, in January 1945, the Red Army had an impressive force of 1,670,000 soldiers, 28,360 artillery guns and heavy mortars, over a thousand Katyusha rocket launchers, 3,300 armored fighting vehicles and nearly 3,000 aircraft.[124] Against this, two out of five army groups positioned on the Eastern Front, Army Group Center and Army Group A, lay in the path of the Soviet offensive; together, they could count on roughly 980,000 personnel, 1,800 armored fighting vehicles, and nearly 900 combat aircraft.[125] During December 1944 the Wehrmacht had concentrated the bulk of its mechanized forces and logistical support on the Western Front, reducing its ability to defend Germany's eastern border from the Soviet Union.[126] For example, 2,299 new and refitted tanks had been delivered to the Western Front by December 1944, while German forces in the East had only received approximately 920.[127] In January 1945 the Wehrmacht was roughly 800,000 men short of complete strength, despite the reorganization of German units in order to take into consideration manpower losses, much if its strength used for the Ardennes Offensive.[128]

This was made clear to the German Armed Forces' high command when General Heinz Guderian presented them with intelligence on the impending Soviet assault, and on a comparison of strength; the German general claimed that the Red Army had an advantage of eleven to one in infantry, seven to one in armor and twenty to one in artillery.[129] It was then mentioned that the defense of the Eastern Front would require the redeployment of armored divisions from the Ardennes.[130] In fact, von Rundstedt had asked for the Ardennes Offensive to be called off on 22 December 1944, in favor of reorienting Germany's armored strength to the East, but this was flatly refused by Hitler.[131] The offensive against American forces in the Ardennes forest had preoccupied Hitler's mind, and the Eastern Front had suddenly become of secondary importance to the Wehrmacht High Command[132] For example, the Sixth Panzer Army would not be transferred to the Eastern Front until 16 January 1945.[133]


Klink, Oberst

P.S. Red Storm on the Reich was the book, as well as others.
Not involved in the planning of Operation 'Wacht am Rhein


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swkuh
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RE: Battle of Bulge in the East

Post by swkuh »

While these discussions are interesting, think that they miss the point. Germany's position was futile. Best course of action would be to fall back to best defence lines and sue for peace. As had been said, I think, by Guderian. Perhaps Hitler really thought the outcome could be changed from a loser's peace to something better. But he was still months away from reality. All those super weapons...
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Commanderski
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RE: Battle of Bulge in the East

Post by Commanderski »

I had thought about making a scenario for that and still might in the future.

The impact of the German forces is much greater on the Allies going West instead of East. I read somewhere that after the war a German General was asked the same question. He said that if they destroyed 30 divisions on the Eastern Front it wouldn't make a difference but would make a huge difference if they destroyed 30 American and British divisions.

I think if they had attacked East instead of West it may have helped in keeping Berlin out of Soviet hands. The Germans did launch a successful attack in late February or March of '45 which caused the Soviets to stop and be more cautious in their steamroller approach. So if the Germans had combined the Ardennes forces with those forces it could have caused the Soviets a setback but would have only been temporary.
Oberst_Klink
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RE: Battle of Bulge in the East

Post by Oberst_Klink »

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

I had thought about making a scenario for that and still might in the future.

The impact of the German forces is much greater on the Allies going West instead of East. I read somewhere that after the war a German General was asked the same question. He said that if they destroyed 30 divisions on the Eastern Front it wouldn't make a difference but would make a huge difference if they destroyed 30 American and British divisions.

I think if they had attacked East instead of West it may have helped in keeping Berlin out of Soviet hands. The Germans did launch a successful attack in late February or March of '45 which caused the Soviets to stop and be more cautious in their steamroller approach. So if the Germans had combined the Ardennes forces with those forces it could have caused the Soviets a setback but would have only been temporary.
Well, I didn't imply that Guderian or the others who opposed the 'little painter' thought they could win. Quite the opposite; they simply wanted to give the Allies more or less the opportunity to be in Berlin first, rather than the Soviets. Being in the Ardennes myself in Nov/Dec, it was from the onset a desperate gamble and might have only worked if Model's 'small solution', to bottle the Americans in the Aachen sector, would have applied.

A Jan45-May45 scenario that gives the Germans an opportunity to liberate the Kurland Kessel would be interesting. Let's say 1-2 weeks prior to the Soviet Vitsula offensive, 20-22 turns game time. I might look into that... cos' my mega-TOAWIII project, all Kharkov battles of 41, 42 and 43 is on ice. A map can be found here:

http://gefechtsstand.wordpress.com/2012 ... v-project/

So, any volunteers for 'What if - 5th Pz Armee East, the liberation of the Kurland cauldron'? ;)

Klink, Oberst
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