NOT ASW

[geofflambert]

This question is not about the game per se, but is not off topic. How did ASW air crews (in particular) and search plane crews tell friend from foe? Did each headquarters keep track of every friendly sub that might show up in their area and how did they do that? Since search areas would overlap enemy search areas and potential enemy surface ASW, if the subs checked in frequently by radio they would be giving their positions away. I feel like I should know this stuff but I don't.

[geofflambert]

For those of you not possessing the answers, here's a couple of OT imponderables:

1. Why do we call chicken pectoral muscles "breasts"? They're birds not mammals.

2. Why do the English call themselves "British" when the terms "Briton and Brythonic" refer to the peoples and languages of the Bretons (from Brittany, France), the Cornish and the Welsh?

[sprior]

Speaking from a UK point of view generally RN boats didn't operate in the same area as U-boats. If a boat was surfaced it was identifiable by its silhouette and as boats had to be spotted on the surface before they could be attacked (at least by aircraft) then identification was possible.

As for dived boats RN boats tended to be where the fleet and/or convoys weren't (and vice versa).

[sprior]

1. It's a well known fact that birds* have breasts.

2. Because we live on the British Isles, most of us on the island of Great Britain. As opposed to Little Britain which is either:

a. A very funny tv programme or
b. aka Brittany.

* You might have to know the answer to 2, to appreciate that.

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

For those of you not possessing the answers, here's a couple of OT imponderables:

1. Why do we call chicken pectoral muscles "breasts"? They're birds not mammals.

2. Why do the English call themselves "British" when the terms "Briton and Brythonic" refer to the peoples and languages of the Bretons (from Brittany, France), the Cornish and the Welsh?

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: sprior

1. It's a well known fact that birds* have breasts.

2. Because we live on the British Isles, most of us on the island of Great Britain. As opposed to Little Britain which is either:

a. A very funny tv programme or
b. aka Brittany.

* You might have to know the answer to 2, to appreciate that.

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

For those of you not possessing the answers, here's a couple of OT imponderables:

1. Why do we call chicken pectoral muscles "breasts"? They're birds not mammals.

2. Why do the English call themselves "British" when the terms "Briton and Brythonic" refer to the peoples and languages of the Bretons (from Brittany, France), the Cornish and the Welsh?

No, I get it, you darn Limey!

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: sprior

Speaking from a UK point of view generally RN boats didn't operate in the same area as U-boats. If a boat was surfaced it was identifiable by its silhouette and as boats had to be spotted on the surface before they could be attacked (at least by aircraft) then identification was possible.

As for dived boats RN boats tended to be where the fleet and/or convoys weren't (and vice versa).

Do you think, in the game, there should be accidental friendly fire incidents by relatively untrained in ASW, search or recon air crews?

[Shellshock]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


Do you think, in the game, there should be accidental friendly fire incidents by relatively untrained in ASW, search or recon air crews?

It certainly appears death by friendly fire was the fate of the US sub Dorado. Oddly enough, despite being sunk in the Caribbean, she still shows up in the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Dorado_%28SS-248%29

There were a lot of near misses and crash dives inflicted on US subs in the days following Pearl Harbor.

[Sardaukar]

Japanese also had crude MAD (magnetic anomaly detector), so in theory, it could make attacks possible against submerged subs. But, apparently did not work that well.

[Wirraway_Ace]

US boats were met by a surface escort as part of their instructions for entering and leaving the air ASW perimeter. The sub followed the escort on the surface. This process is well documented in both the O'Kane books.

Mike

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

This question is not about the game per se, but is not off topic. How did ASW air crews (in particular) and search plane crews tell friend from foe? Did each headquarters keep track of every friendly sub that might show up in their area and how did they do that? Since search areas would overlap enemy search areas and potential enemy surface ASW, if the subs checked in frequently by radio they would be giving their positions away. I feel like I should know this stuff but I don't.

ASW crews then (as now) were keenly trained in an archane subject called "ship and aircraft recognition". This means they were put in a room with an intelligence officer , who showed them photo's and models of ships and aircraft so that they could learn to differentiate "ours" from "theirs". Flight crews historically will pay attention to vitually anything except the lectures. Leading to a great many , many mis-identification of ships and aircraft, (sometimes called "oopsies!" , which caused great dismay to those allied ship and aircraft crews who were victimized by said "oopsies!"). The war began on Pearl Harbor with MASSIVE misidentifications on the US side. Starting with mis-iding Japanese Carrier planes as B-17's, then finally ending a couple of hours later with Enterprise scout bombers being misIDed as Japanese Carrier planes.


No where was the problem of misID more of a problem that submarines spotted by aircrew. My favorite example was the misIDing of a US fleet sub (I think it was the Greenling , if memory serves me) which was spotted by a B-17 after Midway (and from there) as a Japanese CA , which they attacked. The crew of the B-17 did such a good job attacking the "Cruiser" that it sank in 20 seconds. Rumor has it that the sub made a call at Midway on the way home to PH and "educated" the B-17 crew on Submarine ID. Alledgely there were no fatalities, but LOTS of injuries. [:D]

Pretty much all sides (US,British,Germans, etc) made a practice of having their submarine rendevous with a surface escort before returning to home port.


On a personal note, I can attest to the futility of trying to educate flight crews to the importance of identifying what it was they were trying to drop their bombs on , as that was my "collateral duty" in most of my Navy time. I did finally achieve the ability in MOST of my students in telling a "boat" from a "choo-choo". A few advanced individuals could even tell the difference from "the love boat"-anything painted white, from "gray boats"---presumably warships. My class geniuses could even identify a "submarine" from "the love boat". But "ours" from "theirs"? Only in my wildest dreams! [:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

For those of you not possessing the answers, here's a couple of OT imponderables:

1. Why do we call chicken pectoral muscles "breasts"? They're birds not mammals.

2. Why do the English call themselves "British" when the terms "Briton and Brythonic" refer to the peoples and languages of the Bretons (from Brittany, France), the Cornish and the Welsh?

I'll refer you to Chickenboy. [:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: sprior

Speaking from a UK point of view generally RN boats didn't operate in the same area as U-boats. If a boat was surfaced it was identifiable by its silhouette and as boats had to be spotted on the surface before they could be attacked (at least by aircraft) then identification was possible.

As for dived boats RN boats tended to be where the fleet and/or convoys weren't (and vice versa).

Do you think, in the game, there should be accidental friendly fire incidents by relatively untrained in ASW, search or recon air crews?

Oh God yes! We definately need to make this game rougher on the players! [:D]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Shellshock

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


Do you think, in the game, there should be accidental friendly fire incidents by relatively untrained in ASW, search or recon air crews?

It certainly appears death by friendly fire was the fate of the US sub Dorado. Oddly enough, despite being sunk in the Caribbean, she still shows up in the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Dorado_%28SS-248%29

There were a lot of near misses and crash dives inflicted on US subs in the days following Pearl Harbor.

How about the Seawolf? Sunk by "friendly" surface attack. [:(]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Japanese also had crude MAD (magnetic anomaly detector), so in theory, it could make attacks possible against submerged subs. But, apparently did not work that well.

MAD allows you to attack a submerged Magnetic anomoly. Maybe a sub. Maybe a wreck or a rock. Maybe an oil deposit (which is what it was originally developed for). But you cannot use it to differentiate between "our sub" and "their sub". Sorry. All metal looks alike to MAD. [:)]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
1. Why do we call chicken pectoral muscles "breasts"? They're birds not mammals.

Technically, we refer to them as 'boobies' or 'titties'. They're not mammals? Hmmm...damn good point, Gorn. That hadn't occured to me before. [:'(]

[Justus2]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ASW crews then (as now) were keenly trained in an archane subject called "ship and aircraft recognition". This means they were put in a room with an intelligence officer , who showed them photo's and models of ships and aircraft so that they could learn to differentiate "ours" from "theirs". Flight crews historically will pay attention to vitually anything except the lectures.
...
On a personal note, I can attest to the futility of trying to educate flight crews to the importance of identifying what it was they were trying to drop their bombs on , as that was my "collateral duty" in most of my Navy time. I did finally achieve the ability in MOST of my students in telling a "boat" from a "choo-choo". A few advanced individuals could even tell the difference from "the love boat"-anything painted white, from "gray boats"---presumably warships. My class geniuses could even identify a "submarine" from "the love boat". But "ours" from "theirs"? Only in my wildest dreams! [:D]

As an Air Defense officer in my earlier career, we also spent hours each month training our Soldiers on Visual AirCraft Recognition (VACR). The idea was to get the Stinger missile gunners to memorize the silhouettes and features (WEFT-Wing Engine Fuselage Tail) of the aircraft, so they could tell friend from foe if they had to shoot it down. Of course, static slides of an aircraft are always much easier to recognize than a real one moving at several hundred miles an hour. And the fact that we had allies like the French selling aircraft to potential allies like Iraq, and potential enemies like the USSR selling aircraft to countries like Egypt, that then joined our coalition for Desert Storm. So we got an added 'module' to memorize the roundels and tail flags of all these countries. Luckily the USAF destroyed most of the Iraqi aircraft on the ground, I was always doubtful of the ability of some of my Soldiers to correctly identify the slight variations in the Syrian and Iraqi flags on an aircraft flying overhead...

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Justus2

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ASW crews then (as now) were keenly trained in an archane subject called "ship and aircraft recognition". This means they were put in a room with an intelligence officer , who showed them photo's and models of ships and aircraft so that they could learn to differentiate "ours" from "theirs". Flight crews historically will pay attention to vitually anything except the lectures.
...
On a personal note, I can attest to the futility of trying to educate flight crews to the importance of identifying what it was they were trying to drop their bombs on , as that was my "collateral duty" in most of my Navy time. I did finally achieve the ability in MOST of my students in telling a "boat" from a "choo-choo". A few advanced individuals could even tell the difference from "the love boat"-anything painted white, from "gray boats"---presumably warships. My class geniuses could even identify a "submarine" from "the love boat". But "ours" from "theirs"? Only in my wildest dreams! [:D]

As an Air Defense officer in my earlier career, we also spent hours each month training our Soldiers on Visual AirCraft Recognition (VACR). The idea was to get the Stinger missile gunners to memorize the silhouettes and features (WEFT-Wing Engine Fuselage Tail) of the aircraft, so they could tell friend from foe if they had to shoot it down. Of course, static slides of an aircraft are always much easier to recognize than a real one moving at several hundred miles an hour. And the fact that we had allies like the French selling aircraft to potential allies like Iraq, and potential enemies like the USSR selling aircraft to countries like Egypt, that then joined our coalition for Desert Storm. So we got an added 'module' to memorize the roundels and tail flags of all these countries. Luckily the USAF destroyed most of the Iraqi aircraft on the ground, I was always doubtful of the ability of some of my Soldiers to correctly identify the slight variations in the Syrian and Iraqi flags on an aircraft flying overhead...

My students used to see the same photo's again and again. They developed the bad habit of thinking "oh this is the Kashin class destroyer because there is the guy leaning out on the starboard bridge wing", or "there is is the guy on the bow giving the camera man the finger". I would bust a gut to find photo's that were different. Everybody KNEW the Soviet Riga class frigate by the liferings on the focsule ("look for the rings on the Riga"). I found a bunch of photo's where the liferings had been taken down. Now those were some unhappy aircrew. [:D]

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

US boats were met by a surface escort as part of their instructions for entering and leaving the air ASW perimeter. The sub followed the escort on the surface. This process is well documented in both the O'Kane books.

Mike

That's one not in the game. I don't know where I'd come up with those escorts. Because of their range the escorts meeting them would need substantial range, meaning destroyers or the few AMs you have with that kind of range, unless you send merchant vessels to do it. I'd be interested in learning more about that. Have to look up this O'Kane fellow. Hope someday this whole business and it's necessities can be incorporated in the game. These escorts would be exposed to enemy air attack, if not worse. Hmmmm.

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

US boats were met by a surface escort as part of their instructions for entering and leaving the air ASW perimeter. The sub followed the escort on the surface. This process is well documented in both the O'Kane books.

Mike

That's one not in the game. I don't know where I'd come up with those escorts. Because of their range the escorts meeting them would need substantial range, meaning destroyers or the few AMs you have with that kind of range, unless you send merchant vessels to do it. I'd be interested in learning more about that. Have to look up this O'Kane fellow. Hope someday this whole business and it's necessities can be incorporated in the game. These escorts would be exposed to enemy air attack, if not worse. Hmmmm.

In real life, YP's,SC's or DD's and DE's being trained did the service. In any major sub base , like PH , I always have local ASW and local minesweeping out there. [:)]

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

For those of you not possessing the answers, here's a couple of OT imponderables:

1. Why do we call chicken pectoral muscles "breasts"? They're birds not mammals.

2. Why do the English call themselves "British" when the terms "Briton and Brythonic" refer to the peoples and languages of the Bretons (from Brittany, France), the Cornish and the Welsh?

I'll refer you to Chickenboy. [:D]

Chickenboy has breasts? They're not fake are they? I hate fake boobs.

edit: Seriously, male humans also have breasts, that's why we can get breast cancer, although it is rare. But if you feel a lump in that area, get it biopsied immediately.