I believe this game will never happen

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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warspite1
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Kham
warspite1

It was a rhetorical question.......

Not fair to say nothing has changed - although admittedly you can be forgiven for thinking that is the case. Rest assured, there is plenty of work going on under the surface - keep the faith. In Steve we trust [:)]

It must be very well hidden
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

May 2, 2010 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum


Beta Testing
I released versions 4.01.01, 4.01.02, 4.01.03, 4.01.04 and 4.01.05 to the beta testers this month. They got a new version about every 4 days at the beginning of the month but that paced slacked off once I started working on the rewrite of the supply routines.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

May 1, 2013 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum

In April I released 3 new versions to the beta testers: 10.03.00 (12 fixes), 10.03.01 (8 fixes), and 10.03.03 (8 fixes). The last of those was on April 14th. I have 20 fixes done for version 10.03.04, which is waiting for me to finish supply. Both the number of new versions and fixes (48) are dramatically below my averages. What can I say, debugging supply takes a lot of my time and effort.

warspite1

I confirmed to you that there has been great advances in getting the game ready for launch (and agreed that that may not be readily apparent from the outside). I was just trying to give you some tangible comfort (NDA considerations permitting) that the game is progressing.

You can accept what I say or choose to continue you with your thought that it is unlikely we will see this game released commercially. Your choice.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Kham
warspite1

It was a rhetorical question.......

Not fair to say nothing has changed - although admittedly you can be forgiven for thinking that is the case. Rest assured, there is plenty of work going on under the surface - keep the faith. In Steve we trust [:)]

It must be very well hidden
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

May 2, 2010 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum


Beta Testing
I released versions 4.01.01, 4.01.02, 4.01.03, 4.01.04 and 4.01.05 to the beta testers this month. They got a new version about every 4 days at the beginning of the month but that paced slacked off once I started working on the rewrite of the supply routines.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

May 1, 2013 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum

In April I released 3 new versions to the beta testers: 10.03.00 (12 fixes), 10.03.01 (8 fixes), and 10.03.03 (8 fixes). The last of those was on April 14th. I have 20 fixes done for version 10.03.04, which is waiting for me to finish supply. Both the number of new versions and fixes (48) are dramatically below my averages. What can I say, debugging supply takes a lot of my time and effort.

CWIF handled supply by calculating supply for all units on the map whenever it was possible that the supply status of a unit might have changed. There were some flaws in precision of the supply calculations, but nothing major. If you wanted to know from where a unit was getting supply, then there was a popup menu item that let you do that. The feedback to the player was a list of hex coordinates, which traced the path from the unit to the ultimate supply source. But it was very difficult to understand what the list of coordinates was telling you.

For MWIF I wanted to made the supply calculations absolutely accurate, so I started from scratch. I considered simply trying to correct the CWIF supply code, but it used recursive calls and had no documentation whatsoever, so I eventually ruled that out. Getting the rules straight was non-trivial, it took many experienced WIF players to determine exactly what supply sources and paths could be used by each secondary supply source and unit. I would guess that fewer than half of the WIF over-the-board players fully understand the rules on supply. Based on some of the discussions in this forum the sad news is that some of them play major supply rules wrong.

Then there was the question of feedback to the player. I want players who are new to WIF to be able to understand supply. Rather than just show "these units are in supply" and "these units are not", I believe it is important to define all the possible supply sources, which ones are currently valid and which ones can not currently be used (e.g., an HQ which is too far from a rail line because of bad weather). In addition, I wanted to display all the out-of-supply units in a list for each major power and minor country. That way a player could know which units he needed to get back in supply (or might want to attack).

So, my first pass on rewriting supply was to define data structures to hold all the information necessary for reporting on supply to the player. Hand in hand with that was creating a new form to display the supply sources and paths. As part of that form was a check box that toggled between showing units in supply and those that were OOS. That took a lot of work - months when interspersed with correctly bugs in the sequence of play and adding other elements to the game (e.g., redesigning the production planning form, finishing code for incomplete optional rules). Eventually concern about other aspects of the game took my attention away from supply completely for a long period.

My second pass was to eliminate any existing bugs in determining supply, and getting it to execute very quickly (i.e., less than 10 seconds in very complicated game positions). All of this was calculating supply from scratch - without any existing information on supply sources or paths. I only finished with that month or so ago. What was most difficult in this pass was coding the search for tertiary supply sources, which can trace to secondary or other tertiary. The reason that was hard was that a secondary (or tertiary) can have multiple supply paths back to different primary supply sources. So, a German HQ unit might be useable by the Italians to trace back to Italy and useable by the Rumanians to trace back to Rumania. Throw in the possibility of overseas supply and a linked list of tertiary supply sources and you can see that things get complex. Right now I have allocated memory for each secondary/tertiary supply source having up to 26 supply paths.

I'm coming to a close on my third pass, which is to recalculating supply using the information previously gathered. The goal here is to make recalculating supply take less than 1/10 of a second. To do that I've written code to determine if supply has changed (usually due to a unit moving, but sometimes because of a massive change in the game like the weather or a DOW). Why not just rerun a full supply calculation like CWIF did? Because to do so every time you move a unit would quickly become annoying beyond belief, even if it only took the program 1 second to accomplish that: move a unit - pause - move a unit - pause - ...

As part of recalculating supply I am also maintaining tables of which supply sources are being used by which units. Plus all the stuff about OOS units. The benefit of all this data is that you can pop up the display supply sources and paths form whenever you want to see which units are tracing supply overseas and through which sea areas. There is a ton if information on supply at the player's fingertips.

But getting the code to execute the rules perfectly and to keep even the newest WIF player well informed concerning supply comes at a cost: the time and effort it takes for me to write and debug the code.

So, in a sense you are right: the progress in completing MWIF is well hidden. A player clicks on a land unit to pick it up and then clicks on a destination hex. The tens of thousands of lines of code that are executed to make sure the move is legal and transform the game state to reflect the changes caused by moving the unit are never seen by the player. What does he care? The game either works or not. If it doesn't, it's a worthless. Personally I feel that way about my car and the faucet in my sink. And so it goes.[8D]
Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by pzgndr »

I would guess that fewer than half of the WIF over-the-board players fully understand the rules on supply. Based on some of the discussions in this forum the sad news is that some of them play major supply rules wrong.

And how many other game rules may some human players be playing wrong I wonder. It's amusing that some folks are overly concerned about an AI not being good enough. This assumes that all human players are better. Sometimes not, and besides the honest mistakes due to not understanding a rule fully there are of course those who are not so honest. And perhaps that is why some are so adamant against an AI; you can't cheat against it!
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

Do you know the supply rules?

Name 3 situations where an HQ unit, which is not in supply, can provide supply to a unit.[:)]
Steve

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paulderynck
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
And how many other game rules may some human players be playing wrong I wonder. It's amusing that some folks are overly concerned about an AI not being good enough. This assumes that all human players are better. Sometimes not, and besides the honest mistakes due to not understanding a rule fully there are of course those who are not so honest. And perhaps that is why some are so adamant against an AI; you can't cheat against it!
What you describe is the reason why MWiF will be better than Vassal. It will enforce the rules. It doesn't need an AI to enforce the rules. The rules (RAC) are invariably coded into the game.

Issue 1: Should the game be released without the AI? I recall people arguing about this, but no one stating that the game should not ever have an AI. It is a choice of something now versus an unknown delay to get the same thing as now plus something additional that has unknown value.

Non-Issue 2: Should the game have an AI? In fact this is not an issue. Steve has stated repeatedly that providing an AI is part of his contract.

Issue 3: Will the AI be good enough? Obviously opinions vary. What is good enough? There is an interesting Ted talk online by the guy who designed the Tower Defense games. The problem is not to make the AI good, the problem is to make it competitive. If it always wins, people hate it. If it always loses, I suppose some people might like it... But I expect the majority want a competitive game. Hence, for the meantime I recommend playing solitaire if you can't find an opponent. That way you'll have a competitive AI.
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by Mike Parker »

Do you know the supply rules?

Name 3 situations where an HQ unit, which is not in supply, can provide supply to a unit.

Oh Oh I know one!

Bluster at your opponent alot and say 'Well of course that Arm is in supply any fool can see that!' and start moving units
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by Greyshaft »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Do you know the supply rules?

Name 3 situations where an HQ unit, which is not in supply, can provide supply to a unit.[:)]

1. Spending an Offensive chit?
2. on the weekend after Payday?
3. using the CTRL-SHIFT-F1-[ENTER] key combination that Steve secretly programmed into MWiF ?
/Greyshaft
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by pzgndr »

The problem is not to make the AI good, the problem is to make it competitive. If it always wins, people hate it. If it always loses, I suppose some people might like it...

This is why players should have some choice for game difficulty settings. Not so much to allow the AI to "cheat" but to allow either the human player OR computer opponent some handicap(s) for desired play balance, as defined by an individual solitaire player. I don't mind an AI with some bonuses for a tough game; that's alright. I do mind an AI (and human!) that makes flat-out stupid gameplay choices; that can ruin a game quickly.
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Kham
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by Kham »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Do you know the supply rules?

Name 3 situations where an HQ unit, which is not in supply, can provide supply to a unit.[:)]

well there is emergency HQ supply.

And I think a HQ unable to draw supply from a primary source can still help chain to other units, say the Romanian HQ supplying Germans in a pocket in Italy.

An HQ unit in rain needs three hexes to get to a primary source and is therefore out of supply. A unit next to the HQ unit but in Fine weather makes it to the primary source via the out of supply HQ.

I think :)

Didn't say it was easy - I am probably wrong lol.

And since I do hope that the game gets finished and I sincerely hope warspite1 is correct.
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by ACMW »

I don't give a fig about the AI. I do care about being able to play in distributed mode. But this, this, is what I want. A system that ensures (enforces!) that the rules are played as intended, and, preferably, provides assistance to the player in understanding why he can't do this or that. This - and the above mentioned supply rules are the biggest and bast example of this - is worth the wait.

Cheers

ACMW
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker
Do you know the supply rules?

Name 3 situations where an HQ unit, which is not in supply, can provide supply to a unit.

Oh Oh I know one!

Bluster at your opponent alot and say 'Well of course that Arm is in supply any fool can see that!' and start moving units
That do sound to familiar for comfort. Some players need to be checked all the time. [:(]
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Kham

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Do you know the supply rules?

Name 3 situations where an HQ unit, which is not in supply, can provide supply to a unit.[:)]

well there is emergency HQ supply.

And I think a HQ unable to draw supply from a primary source can still help chain to other units, say the Romanian HQ supplying Germans in a pocket in Italy.

An HQ unit in rain needs three hexes to get to a primary source and is therefore out of supply. A unit next to the HQ unit but in Fine weather makes it to the primary source via the out of supply HQ.

I think :)

Didn't say it was easy - I am probably wrong lol.

And since I do hope that the game gets finished and I sincerely hope warspite1 is correct.
Yes, Emergency HQ Supply is one of the three. I think it was a rule clarification that stated that although the HQ is providing supply to other units, the HQ itself is not in supply.

And you're right about the Rumanian HQ; it's able to funnel supply from Italian cities to German units, while the Rumanian HQ itself can not draw supply for itself from the Italian cities.

Congratulations.[&o]

No the weather doesn't play a role. In the example you gave (by the way, Rain cuts basic supply hexes to 2, not 3; it is snow that cuts it to 3), the unit would not need the HQ to reach the primary supply source. But if I twist your circumstances a bit more, maybe weather can have an effect: If the HQ is in a coastal hex (not a port hex), then it can act as a node in the supply chain (as if the hex the HQ is in were a port hex) for an adjacent unit. Then the weather (rain for the HQ and fine for the adjacent unit) would work the way you describe. If the HQ were unable to find an overseas path to a functioning supply source, the unit might still be able to do so by treating the HQ as if it were a port - for supply purposes. This is not as strange a circumstance as it might seem, since a weather zone could be experiencing rain, yet the unit in a desert hex would be experiencing fine weather.

---

But there is one more I still had in mind.[;)]
Steve

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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by Patton_71 »

An HQ unit can 'eat' a supply div. This makes the HQ a primary supply source.
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by Greyshaft »

I think there will be great demand for an "Agony Aunt" column on the MWiF fan site to explain why previous foolproof maneauvers with cardboard WiF no longer work in computer MWiF ...

"whaddayamean it's against the rules??? I've been doing that maneauver since Wif 3 and no-one ever complained before!!!
/Greyshaft
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Patton_71

An HQ unit can 'eat' a supply div. This makes the HQ a primary supply source.
True. But then the HQ is also in supply.

So that is not what I was thinking of.
Steve

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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by Rising-Sun »

Give them a chance, sometimes they will runs into bugs and problems and take longer than expected. Infact coming up with new ideas and research can be awhile too.

I wouldnt want a game come out earily that is half way complete, the more time they spend on and testing it, the better it will be. There are ton of games out there happen to have bugs and most of them are like half completed. Infact the tricky parts is, they want money to complete the projects and that can lead to gambling. Like the stock markets, peoples out ther invest their money in companies and other business, there no telling what will happen down the roads.
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by Ingtar »

I'll consider purchasing it after the AI is released. As one of my favorite board wargames, I can wait the extra time for what I really want.
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by wifbrad »

I will purchase it without AI. It is really the only game from Matrix I am interested in purchasing this year.
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by micheljq »

ORIGINAL: bo

I agree with Jimm 100% and I usually dont agree with anybody about anything [;)]

Bo

This one made me laugh! [:)][:D]
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RE: I believe this game will never happen

Post by krupp_88mm »

You know.. I have been checking in time to time to see the progress and it is frustrating.

Especially seeing only one person plugging away at this. But i am appreciative of the great updates.

I do believe this debugging progress and polishing could go much much more quickly if part of the work was outsourced to Pakistan, we can hire coders for only a few dollars an hour, several of them maybe even a half dozen, and get the game ready to go in a few months tops.

The only problem is this will take money, but not -a lot maybe 46 thousands dollars. But it would also require the cooperation and willingness of the current development team (or person) to set up the methodology to network and outsource the work. Maybe a week or two to get that set up and get the right people up to speed and ready to go. I don;t know if they would like that.

Anyway if money is a problem you guys could always try to get a kick starter going.
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