Feedback Public Beta BftB v4.4.262

[BigDuke66]

For now it looks good but I saw some minor things that I can't really track down.
1. Facing settings seem to get lost, I set a facing for an attack but checking back after a while shows the facing compass empty & auto marked and the target box is closed instead of open at the bottom like it is usual with a set facing, that seems to happen for defense orders too.
2. Maybe I misunderstand something but why can't I adjust the attack time after the initial setting of an attack? I see a lot attacks that were planned earlier and still have not reached their FUPs, I want to delay their attacks till the next morning but I can't set an assault time as the Auto box is grayed out. Is there something that prohibits this?

PS Have now uploaded a save where one can see the first point I mentioned.
I set facings for the 9 FJ Regiments and for the II Bat. 27th Füsilier Reg., while doing that game is paused(doing it while game runs doesn't help), now save, exit game, start game, load save and both units have no settings for the facing, auto is marked & boxes are closed.
Not sure what positions they will take now, maybe everything is OK and graphic plays games here but maybe not.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66
For now it looks good but I saw some minor things that I can't really track down.
1. Facing settings seem to get lost, I set a facing for an attack but checking back after a while shows the facing compass empty & auto marked and the target box is closed instead of open at the bottom like it is usual with a set facing, that seems to happen for defense orders too.
2. Maybe I misunderstand something but why can't I adjust the attack time after the initial setting of an attack? I see a lot attacks that were planned earlier and still have not reached their FUPs, I want to delay their attacks till the next morning but I can't set an assault time as the Auto box is grayed out. Is there something that prohibits this?

PS Have now uploaded a save where one can see the first point I mentioned.
I set facings for the 9 FJ Regiments and for the II Bat. 27th Füsilier Reg., while doing that game is paused(doing it while game runs doesn't help), now save, exit game, start game, load save and both units have no settings for the facing, auto is marked & boxes are closed.
Not sure what positions they will take now, maybe everything is OK and graphic plays games here but maybe not.

Thank you for the save, BigDuke, I'll try to reproduce this (loyalcitizen sent me a similar saved game and I couldn't reproduce the problem).

Regarding 2) if I'm not wrong, we decided to freeze Attack task timings once the plan has been worked out. If you want to interrupt, then you'll need the scrub the current plans and issue a Rest task with In Situ formation to the forces you want to wait for next morning, and then issue your attack orders again early in the morning. It's a bit of a stopgap measure, though, but doesn't wave through the C2 constraints in place as one could do before, causing problems in the planning code. I'd like to come up with a better solution (so updating the start time makes the whole force plan to slip, but applying realistic orders processing delay to this kind of "changes" is tricky).

[BigDuke66]

OK thanks for clarifying that.

Bad news is that it looks to me like there are still "freezes" between the move task of an order and the finally finish of the order itself but this time on defend orders, attacks seem to run OK.
Let me explain:
Here are 2 saves with the first showing the untouched "84 Lt Flak Bn" and the second showing my orders to it, a simple defend task South-West of Lanzerath.
It plays out like this, the units will move to the area ordered but when the first 2 company arrive the message "'84 Lt Flak Bat HQ' has completed its Move Task" pops up and all movement of those units stop, the bad things is that neither the first 2 nor the HQ or the last company are in position and I see that their further orders are set around 75 minutes later.
And they really do sit around 75 minutes and than finally take their positions for the defend task.

This is just one example see this behavior again and again when using
Really sounds like the delay we had on attacks were the formations also froze for whatever reason and delayed all attacks a lot.

[BigDuke66]

A minor note, is it a feature or a bug that I get values show for Frontage & Depth when clicking thru the different formations despite "Auto" still marked?
Strange is that after de-selecting the order and clicking again on it both fields show again AUTO instead of the values from before.
And that the Box shown for when "Auto" is marked is usually way off the shown values and that the box jumps to those values when Auto is turned off?

Not having used the fire order at all, at least I can't remember, I wonder if setting any formation will have an impact on the area that is taken under fire.


Currently I'm going thru the different formations to finally check if orders are followed smoothly or if there are any delays, seeing that we now have a problem with defend orders after the problems with the attack orders were solved seems to make that necessary, hopefully some others can test this too.


What I can say already is that I wonder if the behavior of reporting the move task complete although even the first units aren't correctly in position is ok.
I just see this with a probe order, first units aren't really in position and task is reported complete, a small pause is there(6 minutes) after that the units have another move order that seems to line them up to perform the probe order.
Driving up to the FUP and after that sorting & setting up for what ever order was given seems reasonable but that each of the units isn't doing this independently is a pity, not only is the delay(how big or small it may be) after the initial move task a waste but that usually also leaves the rearguard units waiting in the back and letting a chance to catch up slip, this can lead to an even bigger delay when the positions for the final setup don't take the current position into account, sometimes it looks like cards are shuffled again for another round of poker, but this can also lead to the rearguard units not being in position when the attack/probe/etc. orders are performed.
In my case the rearguard for an attack was ordered to take the far side of the line and not the nearest position what lead to the attack being delayed but then still kicked off to early for the rearguard unit to get onto its position, of course it doesn't have to run that bad, for the probe attack the rearguard unit took the center position on the road while the others were moving to the left and right taking enough time for the rearguard to catch up.

Currently I see this with attack, probe, rest(not using the usual in-situ formation), reorg(not using the usual in-situ formation) orders.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

For now it looks good but I saw some minor things that I can't really track down.
1. Facing settings seem to get lost, I set a facing for an attack but checking back after a while shows the facing compass empty & auto marked and the target box is closed instead of open at the bottom like it is usual with a set facing, that seems to happen for defense orders too.
2. Maybe I misunderstand something but why can't I adjust the attack time after the initial setting of an attack? I see a lot attacks that were planned earlier and still have not reached their FUPs, I want to delay their attacks till the next morning but I can't set an assault time as the Auto box is grayed out. Is there something that prohibits this?

PS Have now uploaded a save where one can see the first point I mentioned.
I set facings for the 9 FJ Regiments and for the II Bat. 27th Füsilier Reg., while doing that game is paused(doing it while game runs doesn't help), now save, exit game, start game, load save and both units have no settings for the facing, auto is marked & boxes are closed.
Not sure what positions they will take now, maybe everything is OK and graphic plays games here but maybe not.

Hi BigDuke,

I've checked this thing with the facings again, and now I understand better what's going on. If you check the task of the force, indeed the facing and frontage controls display "auto data", yet the box is being drawn oriented with the settings you entered.

[BletchleyGeek]

That's for the force and it's quite distressing, isn't it?

Nonetheless, when I check the sub-tasks assigned to each unit in the force I see that things are indeed Okay. The task display you see when you select the force is a "summary" of what the units in the force are doing. It appears marked as "auto" because probably the AI has had to do some adjustment to either frontage, depth or facing while working out the plan.

I do think it's confusing, and I'm open to ideas on how to express this better.

[xavutrecht]

Installed the Beta version 262, again, on the previous install the game crashed each time I tried to save it, it works now.

I observed a couple of strange things about facing.
A unit was moving South but facing North.

This batallion was defending facing North but the units were facing other directions (ennemy units were North of the position).



What is the surrender level for an unit. I had an unit with Morale = 5% / Cohesion = 14 % and taking losses routing and going into rout recovery and morale +10% 5 min later (it was finally destroyed).

Some units routed towards ennemy units.

Sometimes a regiment in move order with ambush/attacks selected will send the support units forward and leave the infantry batallions as rear guard (observed some time ago but maybe quite difficult to implement correctly).

[BigDuke66]

Well I guess that German unit behind their lines brings problems, I guess they somehow try to sort out things with an enemy behind and in front of them.

The last point sounds interesting, if you could reproduce this and provide saves that cover this it would help a lot.

@Bletchley_Geek
Shouldn't the task simply display what is ordered instead of what the units are doing?
I mean clicking on the order should simply show the values I have set, what they are doing is simply up to me to check out by locking on the map and checking there status.

[BigDuke66]

OK I now tested a bit further and it seems the problem I posted in post #3(http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3321957) is not only with defend orders but seems to rise every time a defend task is used.
I just tried "Secure Crossing" on an unprimed crossing , Bat. moved up, reported move task complete and issued defend orders but they lay 40 minutes in the future and indeed nothing happened for 40 minutes and than the units started moving again to take those defense positions.
Delay is another example, while some companies are close to there blocking position the switch from move task to defend task but the defend task is usually placed to far in the future.

I'm afraid all orders that use or can switch to defend tasks after the initial order is done(I think attack order switch to defend when the attack order is finished for example) need to be looked at, can't be that such delay occurs right in the process of following an order, simply between the moving to and the defend at a position.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66
@Bletchley_Geek
Shouldn't the task simply display what is ordered instead of what the units are doing?
I mean clicking on the order should simply show the values I have set, what they are doing is simply up to me to check out by locking on the map and checking there status.

The thing is that the task you set for a force - the top level task - is decomposed into a serie of low-level tasks for each unit in the force. During planning the AI is free to adjust your settings for the top level task within a reasonable margin so that the low-level task settings are better suited to the situation at hand. This is signalled by turning those UI widgets to auto. You can appraise the frontage and depth - after AI adjustments - with the box enclosing the force footprint. I'm not sure it's a fully consistent way of handling this, but in this case you can trust the AI (I think).

[xavutrecht]

Same weird formation happened again, ie Inf Rgt HQ with its support units and an Inf Btn on the move with Ambush/Attacks checked. Support units are marching first and the Inf Btn is in rear guard mission.

I tried this same configuration on the game without this patch and the Inf Btn was taking the lead, as expected.

Attached is the saved game file.

[BigDuke66]

@Bletchley_Geek
Were you able to reproduce the major delay between move and defend tasks?(Mentioned in post #3 & #8)

[Arjuna]

BigDuke66,

Miquel and I have been in conference these last few days. So he's been a bit preoccupied. Can you please provide a save taken after your order was given but before the force arrives at its objective. Then we can see exactly what is going on. The golden rule for bug hunting and fixing is to provide a save. Thanks.

[BigDuke66]

Try the files attached in post 3, in case they are not sufficient here is a save with a single bat. given a defend order.
It reports move task complete at 6:47 but the following defend order for the 2 companies close to the destination point and the move task for the rearguard company don't start before around 8:00(played it twice and once it was 8:02 and once 7:55).

Just to compile my past postings:
There is a delay between the former task of an order and the following defend task, simple example is a defend order that has a move task which is followed by a defend task.
The move task is reported complete but the following defend task usually lays far ahead, sometimes 30-40 minutes up to around 90 minutes, in this save it is around 75 minutes.
And that can happen in every order that has a defend task, be in secure/deny crossing, delay, withdraw, etc., I think even orders that are solve and where the units switch to defend because no other order is there show this.

[Phoenix100]

I wonder why this sometimes happens? It's not new to this build. I think it's always occasionally happened (as long as I recall playing this game, anyway). A direct fire order graphic that looks like a move task. It doesn't seem to affect things - the bombard still goes in as planned, so I've never mentioned it.

[jimcarravall]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

I wonder why this sometimes happens? It's not new to this build. I think it's always occasionally happened (as long as I recall playing this game, anyway). A direct fire order graphic that looks like a move task. It doesn't seem to affect things - the bombard still goes in as planned, so I've never mentioned it.

Based on having a speed and a routing selected, not all order options available and nearby units reorganizing for a task, it appears the bombard order was issued in the midst of conducting a different mission (perhaps after a higher echelon unit was issued an order for the command that includes the mortar unit).

If orders delay is on, the previous task will run until the selected orders delay lag time has passed. Once passed, the unit would drop the criteria from the original order to redeploy and conduct the fire mission.

Hope this helps.

[Phoenix100]

Thanks Jim. The only thing it was doing before this order was re-orging after landing. This is the first order I've given it. I suppose it's possible that it's previous boss (not me) gave it such a Move order whilst it was re-orging (unlikely, since it's previous boss was given orders by me as soon as it landed, and not to move to there...), but it would be stretching belief to think that by chance it gave it a Move order to just the place where I've given a bombard order. Rather, I think....it's a bug. Though a harmless one, perhaps.

[BigDuke66]

What's the status of my reported problem?

I just wonder as neither my save from post #14 nor from post #3 was downloaded, or is it futile to attach saves here and they should be better mailed to PantherGames directly?

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

What's the status of my reported problem?

I just wonder as neither my save from post #14 nor from post #3 was downloaded, or is it futile to attach saves here and they should be better mailed to PantherGames directly?

No, not futile BigDuke. I've downloaded those saved games, I'm looking forward to go over them in detail. Dave has some availability problems at the moment (he might want to chime in) and I'm now on vacation travelling around Europe - until June 22nd - so while it might be a long wait, we'll eventually get back to you [:)]

[Arjuna]

Sorry, but I am currently convalescing from a small operation. I wont be fully functioning for a few more weeks.