strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

[brian brian]

For the record, in 1939 Bulgaria would have one unit the turn it is aligned, and the MIL would show up the turn after. But it could leave Bulgaria also. If Bulgaria had 3 units, only 2 could leave.

[Extraneous]

Bulgaria
II INF (3-3) (1935)
Sofia MIL (2-3) (Res)

9.6 Calling out the reserves
Each major power (exception: Vichy France, see 17.3) has reserve units that you can call out when it goes to war with another major power. You can always call out reserves that have ‘Res’ on the back of their counter. If a reserve unit has a particular major power named on its back, you can only call it out when you go to war with that major power.

Example: You can call out the Soviet “Moscow” militia when the USSR goes to war with Germany (Ge).

You don’t have to call out all the eligible reserves at the first opportunity. Any you don’t call out are available while you are at war with a major power.

When you call out the reserves:
• move your eligible reserve units from the reserve pool to the map immediately in the same manner as reinforcements (see 4.2) except that they are set-up face down; and
• put your eligible reserve units that have previously been removed from the game back into your force pools.

From now on, treat these reserves just like any other units.

9.8 Aligning minors
If a neutral minor can align with your major power (see 19.6, 19.7 and 19.8), you can declare that it is aligning with you. You can only declare one minor aligned with your major power in each friendly impulse. Your major power controls a minor that aligns with it exactly as if another major power had declared war on it.

What brian brian is saying is that following the sequence of the rules since Bulgaria was aligned after the German DoW of Greece it would not be able to call up its reserves until the next impulse.

And as Patrice correctly pointed out (on the AI for MWiF - Germany thread) the Sofia MIL would be placed in Sofia.

[Extraneous]

Q18.2-11
Japan DOWs USA, strikes Honolulu, Japanese fleet returns to Canton, without any ground troops. US SCS with INF division sails into Hong Kong on a combined, then moves into Canton then back into Hong Kong to end the land step.

Rule 18.2 states that a unit cannot end a STEP in the home country of a major power it doesn’t cooperate with. The INF division didn’t. I claim this is a legal move.
My opponent claims it isn’t because of foreign troop commitments. Who is correct?

Your opponent, 11.11.5 Active major powers, forbids land movement into a non co-operating major power (China in this case) unless you satisfy the Foreign Troop commitment rule (see WiF 18.2). Date 27/10/2008

11.11.5 Active major powers
You can move a land unit controlled by an active major power into any hex controlled by:
• that major power and its aligned minors; or • another active major power on the same side (or its controlled minor countries); or
• a major power or minor country it is at war with.

There are some exceptions:
• units can’t enter the home country of a non co-operating major power on the same side unless they satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2); and
• minor country units can’t enter a hex controlled by another minor country aligned with their side unless they satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules.
• units cannot enter a country controlled by another power on their side without permission of the owner.

By having Germany DoW Greece this allows Germany and its aligned minor countries to attack all units in Greece.
By having Italy DoW Greece this allows Italy and its aligned minor countries to attack all units in Greece.

By not having the CW DoW Italy:
The CW may not attack Italian controlled hexes in Greece.
But the CW may attack hexes controlled by Germany and its aligned minor countries in Greece.

We have a case of multiple states of war.

Greece is at war with Germany and its aligned minor countries and Italy.
The CW is at war with Germany and its aligned minor countries but not Italy.

9.9 Multiple states of war
Because you can be at war with some major powers but not others, you will encounter cases where you are opposed by some units at war with you and by others that aren’t. This rule deals with those cases. A unit may not enter or attack a hex (or units therein) controlled by a major power on the other side that it isn’t at war with. However it can attack a hex controlled by an enemy major power or minor country even if the hex contains units it is not at war with.

In attacking such a hex, you must fight all units there, but both sides ignore the fact that you may not be at war with all of them. This means that each side could fly air missions to the hex and use shore bombardment etc. as if they were all at war.

You can only support an attack against units you control if the supporting units are the same nationality as the unit (or hex during strategic bombardment) being attacked or at war with at least one major power or minor country attacking those units (or hexes).

Example 1: There are 2 Commonwealth land units and a face-down LND in Nice. Italy declares war on France and wants to attack Nice. Italian aircraft ground strike the hex. They can be intercepted by Commonwealth (but not French ~ see 18) fighters. Both the Commonwealth and Italy can fly aircraft in ground support to the hex. If the Italians win the combat and advance into the hex, the face-down
Commonwealth LND will be destroyed. Commonwealth units will not be able to counter attack to recapture the hex (unless they declare war on Italy) because they can’t attack a hex controlled by a major power they aren’t at war with.

Italy can attack hexes in Greece even if CW units are present.

[Centuur]

@ Extranous minor countries can't set up any reserves. They get their reserve units at the start of the next turn (not impulse), if they survive...

And we are back to the Greek - Bulgarian/Italian war. I say: let the Italians attack the CW units in Greece. I don't care as the CW that I can't counterattack them. I simply want to stall the Italians to make sure heavy German infantry and some Stuka's will be railed to Greece to conquer it, before I am going to put 4 CW corps into the country and than align Yugoslavia. That's a far better way of stalling the attack on France than putting Gort and Wavell in France, I believe, if the Italians are stupid enough to DoW Greece in 1939.
With all those mountains in Greece, I can put together a nice defense with two CW and three Greek corps size units. And if Yugoslavia becomes allied... Hmmm. How nice it is to have that army threathening to go towards Ploesti, or knock Bulgaria out of the war, or entering Italy, or doing all nasty kind of things in Hungary or even in Germany itself. Yes, it will get destroyed on the long run, but I don't care. I want to stall the Euroaxis timetable and prevent the Germans/Italians from aligning Yugoslavia.

As stated, Greece might be considered if France falls fast enough and the Euroaxis are going for a Barbarossa or if the Med is closed. Otherwise, it might stay happily neutral a long, long time in the game...

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

@ Extranous minor countries can't set up any reserves. They get their reserve units at the start of the next turn (not impulse), if they survive...

And we are back to the Greek - Bulgarian/Italian war. I say: let the Italians attack the CW units in Greece. I don't care as the CW that I can't counterattack them. I simply want to stall the Italians to make sure heavy German infantry and some Stuka's will be railed to Greece to conquer it, before I am going to put 4 CW corps into the country and than align Yugoslavia. That's a far better way of stalling the attack on France than putting Gort and Wavell in France, I believe, if the Italians are stupid enough to DoW Greece in 1939.
With all those mountains in Greece, I can put together a nice defense with two CW and three Greek corps size units. And if Yugoslavia becomes allied... Hmmm. How nice it is to have that army threathening to go towards Ploesti, or knock Bulgaria out of the war, or entering Italy, or doing all nasty kind of things in Hungary or even in Germany itself. Yes, it will get destroyed on the long run, but I don't care. I want to stall the Euroaxis timetable and prevent the Germans/Italians from aligning Yugoslavia.

As stated, Greece might be considered if France falls fast enough and the Euroaxis are going for a Barbarossa or if the Med is closed. Otherwise, it might stay happily neutral a long, long time in the game...

Hmm can't seam to look that one up Centuur.

Don't take this wrong but how about you posting the rule you state so we can all see it.


I would appreciate it if we all leave it for Centuur to post.


I'm tired of doing Centuur's leg work.

[paulderynck]

"19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
When a minor country aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country.
Set up each of the minor’s land and aircraft units that has an earlier year on its back. If it has the current year or ‘Res’, put it on the production circle to arrive as a reinforcement in the next turn (PiF option 28: along with its pilot)."

You should start trusting the people who've played the game for a few years.

BTW: All minor country MIL have "RES" on their backs.

[brian brian]

I forgot the Yugoslavia angle.....yet more fun for the Allies.

Another good reason not to have Italy attack Greece and France in 1939 is all those Greek convoy points. A little later in the war they can attack Greece with more options to deal with the Greek merchant fleet on the surprise impulse.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

"19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
When a minor country aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country.
Set up each of the minor’s land and aircraft units that has an earlier year on its back. If it has the current year or ‘Res’, put it on the production circle to arrive as a reinforcement in the next turn (PiF option 28: along with its pilot)."

You should start trusting the people who've played the game for a few years.

BTW: All minor country MIL have "RES" on their backs.

Ok then.

According to a strict reading of the rules Italy cannot enter Greece if the CW alignes it,

No I'm not not going tp post the rule you all find it,

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

"19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
When a minor country aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country.
Set up each of the minor’s land and aircraft units that has an earlier year on its back. If it has the current year or ‘Res’, put it on the production circle to arrive as a reinforcement in the next turn (PiF option 28: along with its pilot)."

You should start trusting the people who've played the game for a few years.

BTW: All minor country MIL have "RES" on their backs.

Ok then.

According to a strict reading of the rules Italy cannot enter Greece if the CW alignes it,

No I'm not not going tp post the rule you all find it,

You are mistaken:

19.3 Who can enter the minor
Your units can enter hexes controlled by a minor country if:
• you are at war with it or with the major power that controls it

You don't have to be at war with the major power that aligns the minor...

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

"19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
When a minor country aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country.
Set up each of the minor’s land and aircraft units that has an earlier year on its back. If it has the current year or ‘Res’, put it on the production circle to arrive as a reinforcement in the next turn (PiF option 28: along with its pilot)."

You should start trusting the people who've played the game for a few years.

BTW: All minor country MIL have "RES" on their backs.

Ok then.

According to a strict reading of the rules Italy cannot enter Greece if the CW alignes it,

No I'm not not going tp post the rule you all find it,

You are mistaken:

19.3 Who can enter the minor
Your units can enter hexes controlled by a minor country if:
• you are at war with it or with the major power that controls it

You don't have to be at war with the major power that aligns the minor...

You can’t enter a hex controlled by:
• a neutral minor country;
• a neutral major power on your side; or
• a major power or minor country you’re not yet at war with on the other side.

[paulderynck]

Your point eludes me here. Perhaps because there isn't one.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Extraneous




Ok then.

According to a strict reading of the rules Italy cannot enter Greece if the CW alignes it,

No I'm not not going tp post the rule you all find it,

You are mistaken:

19.3 Who can enter the minor
Your units can enter hexes controlled by a minor country if:
• you are at war with it or with the major power that controls it

You don't have to be at war with the major power that aligns the minor...

You can’t enter a hex controlled by:
• a neutral minor country;
• a neutral major power on your side; or
• a major power or minor country you’re not yet at war with on the other side.

Since Italy declared war on Greece it can enter Greece regardless on who align Greece.

[Extraneous]

You can’t enter a hex controlled by:
• a neutral minor country;
• a neutral major power on your side; or
• a major power or minor country you’re not yet at war with on the other side.

19.2 Entering the war
A minor country enters the war when:
• a major power declares war on it (it joins the other side); or
• it aligns with a major power (see 9.8 Aligning minors).

If a minor country aligns with a major power, it is controlled by that major power.

If an Axis major power declares war on a minor country on the American map, it may only align with the USA.

When Germany makes her compulsory declaration of war on Poland (see 9.3 Compulsory declarations), it may only align with the Commonwealth.

In every other case, when one or more major powers declare war on a minor country, choose an active major power on the other side to align with it. If there is more than one eligible major power, offer the minor to the major power whose capital city is closest to the minor’s capital (any home country in the case of the Commonwealth). If it declines, offer it to the next closest, and so on.

If every eligible major power declines, the minor (and all its controlled minors and territories) is immediately conquered by the attacking major power (see 13.7.1 Conquest).

9.7 Controlling new minors
You now allocate control of minor countries declared war on this step, to a major power on the other side (see 19.2), in order of declaration. The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it. Whoever takes control of them in or sets up its forces immediately (see 19.4 Minor country units).

9.8 Aligning minors
If a neutral minor can align with your major power (see 19.6 Soviet border rectification, 19.7 Axis minor countries and 19.8 Allied minor countries), you can declare that it is aligning with you. You can only declare one minor aligned with your major power in each friendly impulse.

Your major power controls a minor that aligns with it exactly as if another major power had declared war on it.

All of 19.3
19.3 Who can enter the minor
Your units can enter hexes controlled by a minor country if:
• you are at war with it or with the major power that controls it; or
• it is conquered by you or another active major power on your side; or
• it is aligned with any active major power on your side and the unit entering is controlled by an active major power (subject to the foreign troop commitment rules ~ see 18.2); or
• it is aligned with a neutral major power on your side and the unit entering is one of that major power’s unit.

A strict reading of the rules:
No Italy is not at war with the CW.
Who controls the hexes the CW does.

[Centuur]

Wrong Extranous:

RAW in section 2.5:

(...)
Note that even though major powers may control minor countries (see
9.8 & 13.7.1), it is the minors themselves that control hexes in that
minor. However, hexes taken from an enemy major power (or its
controlled minors) are controlled by the major power taking them
regardless of whether those hexes are taken by units of the major
power or its controlled minors, unless the major powers are not at war
with each other (in which case the hexes are controlled by the minor
country taking them).
(...)

So Greek hexes are controlled by Greece...

This rule give the Italians full access to all Greek controlled hexes. Therefore the "or" in 19.3. If a state of war exists between a minor and a major, they are allowed to enter each others hexes, without the controlling major power having to be at war with the major power.

Theoretically, the CW can garrison Greece, while the Greeks (controlled by the CW) are busy conquering Albania even when there is no state of war between the CW and Italy. If Greece would grab hexes from the Italians outside of Greece, they would become controlled by the Greek minor country and not the CW. This is important, since this means that the Italians are allowed to re-enter those hexes, which they wouldn't be allowed to do, if those hexes became controlled by the CW.

[paulderynck]

deleted

[Extraneous]

By the way my main point was to show how you all responded and what I have to deal with.

Note the rules selected used to counter my post.
2. General concepts ~ 2.5 Control ~ Changing control (this should be under "9.9 Multiple states of war" or "19. Minor countries")
9.8 Aligning minors (which I supplied title of the rule)
13.7.1 Conquest (which I supplied title of the rule)
19.3 Who can enter the minor (a partial which I supplied in full)

None of you mentioned "9.9 Multiple states of war" which was the key to this situation.

paulderynck: My complements on you sticking up for your friends (it is what a friend does).

I agree you couldn't see the point I did not supply enough information.

Since there have been errors made by "more experienced players" I think I will continue as is. "All minor country MIL have "RES" on their backs" Copenhagen MIL (3-2) on PionsWiF-AiF-PatiF does not have RES it has 1943. There are more or is Patrice wrong?

brian brian: Your responses were short and concise.

Centuur: He only posts what he sees as relevant. Your lucky if he gives the rule number. Most of the time I have to search on the sentences just to find out what he is posting about. This is time consuming and distracting from the subject being discussed. His Idea of a strategy session is do it his way there is no other way.

I knew my position was completely flawed when I started. But this is what I have to deal with in most of my posts I hope you enjoyed it.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Since there have been errors made by "more experienced players" I think I will continue as is. "All minor country MIL have "RES" on their backs" Copenhagen MIL (3-2) on PionsWiF-AiF-PatiF does not have RES it has 1943. There are more or is Patrice wrong?

The error is in the reading of the spreadsheet.

There are two entries for the Danish MIL. The one that has 1943 is from Patton in Flames. The one that is used in a game of Global War - remember this is what this thread is about? - is the one from WiF Classic, which is the one used for WiFFE Global War scenario.

This is what the rest of us have to deal with.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

"19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
When a minor country aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s initial units must set up in its home country.
Set up each of the minor’s land and aircraft units that has an earlier year on its back. If it has the current year or ‘Res’, put it on the production circle to arrive as a reinforcement in the next turn (PiF option 28: along with its pilot)."

You should start trusting the people who've played the game for a few years.

BTW: All minor country MIL have "RES" on their backs.

Look at what you posted "All minor country MIL have "RES" on their backs" and now you are attempting to qualify your statement?


BTW: without your post above I would not have posted:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Ok then.

According to a strict reading of the rules Italy cannot enter Greece if the CW aligns it.

No I'm not going to post the rule you all find it,

Remember what I posted?

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Hmm can't seam to look that one up Centuur.

Don't take this wrong but how about you posting the rule you state so we can all see it.


I would appreciate it if we all leave it for Centuur to post.


I'm tired of doing Centuur's leg work.

[paulderynck]

I'm tired of doing yours.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I'm tired of doing yours.

I don't remember you asking me for anything.
I don't remember me asking you for anything.

I have repeatedly complemented you on your help.