The Good Health of the Wargaming Niche

[rhondabrwn]

An interesting thread, I appreciate the information provided by all the Matrix/Slitherine crew, I am a little embarrassed over the sometimes hostile tone of the thread, and bored over some of the endless repetition.

I trust management to make the effective decisions needed to keep the company in business while listening to comments and suggestions.

My two cents:

If Matrix/Slitherine announced that the price of every game would be cut in half after three years, I would wait the three years. I don't need to have the "latest thing"... if it's a good game, it will be a good game when I finally buy it at discount.

I'm more of a collector, so I snatch up games at discount on Gamer's Gate because these days (now retired) I'm at the point where paying more than $5 is often beyond my cash flow for a game that I might mess around with for a few hours and then never touch it again. When I pay full price, it's for a game that is either a sequel to a series I already do play extensively (All the Tiller's ACW titles, for example, rushed right out to get Campaign Overland); or something that I have been following in development (Witp:AE, WiTE, and MWIF, for example); or a nice package option such as the DW discount for the expansions; or the 35% off Christmas Sale. That said, I have no problem with Matrix pricing, but would like to see a "loyalty" program of some sort.

On the subject of Demo's... I can tell you that me getting a free demo is the death of any purchase for me. If I can download the demo, play with it for a few hours, I am satiated with the game because I rarely get that deep into the games I buy so a demo takes away my motivation to buy it.

A Demo alternative for me would be for you to put together a detailed PDF that takes you through a couple of game turns with a detailed explanation of the game play annotating the screen shots. That is enough to give me a feel for whether I want it or not. The problem with game videos and standard screen shots is that they give you no context about what is happening or why or what the game controls are like... they are just eye candy. Give me a screenie and tell me exactly what's happening and it will mean something. Such a PDF Demo wouldn't be that expensive to produce.

Someone commented that he wanted a demo so he could determine how the game would run on his notebook computer and wouldn't buy any game without such a demo. Perhaps, it would be possible to put together a downloadable system check for each game that would verify compatibility with someone's system and display a few game screens to verify graphic display. More costly than a PDF demo, but I once you had one programmed, it would probably be easy to port it over to new titles. I've noticed a number of games that have an installation check program that verifies that your system can run the game and gives you a detailed list of any failures. Perhaps that feature could be built into all or your titles and a version of it available for download to prospective game purchasers. I've never had a Matrix title that wouldn't run personally, but I can see that some might have a problem gaming on laptops due to graphics limitations.

There, just my two cents to add to one incredibly long pair of discussion threads LOL

[grogmaster]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
If by "forcing the market to be niche with high prices" you mean that after trying many different price levels and models early in our history we settled on the one that seemed to work best to keep us and our developers in business, then I might agree. Our philosophy is that the wargame market is better off with its developers in business rather than not. However, we can't force that on anyone. You can choose to purchase or not and whether to purchase when a title is on sale or not. If our model does not work, a competitor with a different model will eventually replace us.

No, we agree. Your claim for high prices to "keep the developers in business" doesn't seem to be valid if, as it seems, the people who don't buy their (your) products because they are overpriced seem to be growing. The percentage of potential buyers who wont buy your products today is greater than the percentage who wouldn't have bought, 3 years ago. The percentage of potential buyers who will not buy your products seem to be growing by the day according to community input, forums and publication outcries.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
If by "plumping out the most titles in the quickest amount of time" you mean sticking with games and developers that have been in progress for years, in an effort to get a highly anticipated game finished after other publishers would have given up, I might agree. If you meant that we were trying to give every promising developer that was interested in making wargames an actual chance at success even if other publishers would not, then I might agree. I think you'd have to be part of the internal process to see how much work and effort we put into these games from our side and how few of them would have seen the light of day or been in the shape they ended up in without the support of a similar publisher. Our developers do an incredible job and put their hearts into these games, but it's the partnership between us that really gives them the best chance to release within a reasonable timeframe and to meet customer expectations.

We agree, you are sticking with developers that have released great titles (before you acquired them, more likely than not) in an attempt to squeeze all the fan support out of the game series as much as possible just to make a buck. Perhaps other publishers saw that these developers, that you speak of, have nothing new left in their tool boxes so they refuse to make deals with them? They also refuse to stoop to the low level of milking their fan basis to the last dime, the old grog customers with expectations only derived from previously released games, to only release games that show little improvement on these dinosaurs that were great back in the 90s?

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
If by "swallowing up competitors" you mean "keeping them from going out of business" then I might agree. If a good developer or publisher approaches us looking for a better solution, or we see one that's struggling, we'd rather give it our best shot using what we know to try to make them successful. That often works, but sometimes does not. If we see a great title and we'd like to publish it, we will certainly talk to those developers and give them an offer of what we can do.

We agree, in that you approach other publishers when they are most vulnerable in an attempt to acquire their assets for the cheapest of prices and to overtake those who used to make the decisions in a survival of the fittest mentality; grabbing the rights to their titles, absorbing all their accounts receivable, monopolizing all distribution centers and placing their management in secondary and servant-like positions to those in charge at Slitherine--all for a buck. Please don't point out the fact that you are acquiring these businesses when they are most vulnerable in able to make business deals only and exclusively favorable to Slitherine.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
You mentioned Close Combat. Here's a series that was approaching extinction. The only way you could even get a copy was to pay over $100 on E-Bay and the odds were it would not work with your current operating system. The owner of the brand was not doing anything with it and had no future plans. We negotiated on behalf of wargamers and paid to get that license. Even then, it was just opening the door a bit. We were allowed to work with the existing engine and update and remake the original releases. That's also what many in the community wanted, so we focused on that. It was only a year ago that we finally managed to buy the rights to Close Combat outright. Panthers in the Fog was the first result, but it's not our end goal. As you may know, the result of finally getting ownership meant that we immediately started work on a new 3D Close Combat engine. We've invested our money and time into that. We didn't want to keep the community waiting with no Close Combat releases while that was in progress though, so we also continued to work on the existing engine and updated it to create the first non-remake, Panthers in the Fog.

We agree here as well. You acquired the rights to CC in order to milk every last dime of the die hard fans that have been following the series for the last several decades. For your benefit, please don't point this out either. Let's keep this a secret. You've done this to several successful game series by the way. But for some reason, by the time the series is owned by Slitherine Group, its quality diminishes significantly. Last Stand Arnhem and Panthers in the Fog were poor excuses for Close Combat successors.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
We are not a monopoly, nor are we trying to harm the wargaming community. We're doing our best to do the opposite. I would argue that we've released and funded many landmark computer wargames that are the best of their kind, period and set the benchmark for their subject matter and likely will for years to come. We've given the best developers a home and many of them have done their best work here and most are still with us after 10+ years which speaks to their experience.

We agree. You try to represent the wargaming niche. You don't represent the wargaming niche, for me and probably for many other wargamers. So please don't try to say you're the "good guys". That really upsets me.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
As for the people above me on the totem pole, I'm one of the founders and one of the Directors of the company, of which there are five. Based on your previous replies, I assume you are referencing Iain. Iain is also a wargamer and works on these games because he personally enjoys them. His personal history includes competitive tournament tabletop wargaming as well as computer wargaming. He and his father, JD are a wargaming family. Again, I don't know where your assertions come from but as far as I can tell they are without basis.

As far as I can tell, the CEO has no business behind a computer screen. Perhaps he should be refereeing a tabletop game?

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Also, as far as I can tell RPS was not "sniffing out greed" but rather giving us their advice on what would work better as a pricing strategy to make even more money and attract more customers. We may disagree on some of the specifics, but advice like that is always appreciated if not always agreed with.

We disagree here. Advice like this is not welcome and publications, like wargamer.com and armchairgeneral.com, are censored for saying otherwise.


Are you questioning the fact that management vacationed on an exotic island last year? Please don't make me call you out on this one.

[histgamer]

At the risk of starting some kind of stupid argument or flame war. Grog please do US a favor and stop talking as if your the self appointed ambassador for all wargamers. Let other people speak for themselves, there may be others who feel like you do but it's not your place to speak for them nor do you represent the views of everyone.

[grogmaster]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I'm more of a collector, so I snatch up games at discount on Gamer's Gate because these days (now retired) I'm at the point where paying more than $5 is often beyond my cash flow for a game that I might mess around with for a few hours and then never touch it again. When I pay full price, it's for a game that is either a sequel to a series I already do play extensively (All the Tiller's ACW titles, for example, rushed right out to get Campaign Overland); or something that I have been following in development (Witp:AE, WiTE, and MWIF, for example); or a nice package option such as the DW discount for the expansions; or the 35% off Christmas Sale. That said, I have no problem with Matrix pricing, but would like to see a "loyalty" program of some sort.

If you are a collector and you spend money on games in the fashion in which you describe then I must congratulate you because you either (1) picked the most acceptable college degree for financial means or (2) saw your share of luck on Wall Street. Because, I, paying for necessities as I do in this economy, which seems to be a greater share of my income than other years, have little set aside for gaming. This amount is less than it was other years, as my profession has not changed. If you are a collector of Matrix Games, then I'd say you are doing better off than most of the wargamers that play Matrix Games (buying games just for the sake of owning them rather than for the sake of playing them) and you likely represent only 20% of the wargaming PC market.

Having said that, what you say and your position financially, I cannot relate to and therefore seems to be irrelevant to my grievances altogether.

[histgamer]

Also it's worth pointing out that when adjusted for inflation Matrix pricing while higher than places like Steam are actually not as bad when you compare them to inflation.

It probably sounds like I'm stretching a bit but think of it this way.

Today many people expect game developers to sell games for under $30 today when even in the 90s the going rate for most games was in the $30-$50 dollar range.

Sounds fair right? I mean it's still close to the lower range of the 1990s pricing right?

Wrong, when adjusted for inflation $30-$50 in 1992 dollars would be between $50-$80 in today's money. What that means is if a developer is pricing their games around $20 they are somehow surviving on less than 1/2 of the REAL wages of what they would have made in the 90s. It's no wonder so many indie developers are part time today.

A game released for $49.99 in 1993 adjusted for inflation would cost $78.23 today.

WiTP at $60 today is the same as if the game retailed for $37 when the game originally came out.

Now imagine what kind of absurdly low return developers who sell for under $10 on steam are getting? Either they need to strip down on quality to a huge degree and turn the game into a shallow app like game or they need to sell hundreds of thousands of copies to even come close to maintaining the type of wages even a medium sized developer would have had in the 90s and lets face it, while there are many steam success stories there is no way that the majority of developers on steam are selling hundreds of thousands of copies per year, only a handful will.

[Ashcloud]

Are you questioning the fact that management vacationed on an exotic island last year? Please don't make me call you out on this one.

What is wrong with going on an exotic island vacation? I would go if I could.

[grogmaster]

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Also it's worth pointing out that when adjusted for inflation Matrix pricing while higher than places like Steam are actually not as bad when you compare them to inflation.

It probably sounds like I'm stretching a bit but think of it this way.

Today many people expect game developers to sell games for under $30 today when even in the 90s the going rate for most games was in the $30-$50 dollar range.

Sounds fair right? I mean it's still close to the lower range of the 1990s pricing right?

Wrong, when adjusted for inflation $30-$50 in 1992 dollars would be between $50-$80 in today's money. What that means is if a developer is pricing their games around $20 they are somehow surviving on less than 1/2 of the REAL wages of what they would have made in the 90s. It's no wonder so many indie developers are part time today.

A game released for $49.99 in 1993 adjusted for inflation would cost $78.23 today.

WiTP at $60 today is the same as if the game retailed for $37 when the game originally came out.

Your data emphasizes the fact that Matrix Games is out of touch with modern PC game pricing. Prices also fluctuate according to demand and competition. Today, there is also many more PC games available to wargamers than there were in the 1990s, including old games from the 90s, 00s and the huge amount of free MMOs, let alone the globalization of piracy. So please don't refer to such information if your looking to justify Matrix Games pricing policy.

[Ashcloud]

ORIGINAL: grogmaster

If you are a collector and you spend money on games in the fashion in which you describe then I must congratulate you because you either (1) picked the most acceptable college degree for financial means or (2) saw your share of luck on Wall Street. Because, I, paying for necessities as I do in this economy, which seems to be a greater share of my income than other years, have little set aside for gaming. This amount is less than it was other years, as my profession has not changed. If you are a collector of Matrix Games, then I'd say you are doing better off than most of the wargamers that play Matrix Games (buying games just for the sake of owning them rather than for the sake of playing them) and you likely represent only 20% of the wargaming PC market.

Having said that, what you say and your position financially, I cannot relate to and therefore seems to be irrelevant to my grievances altogether.

Question to grogmaster: I live in South Africa and my currency is around 8 Rand to the Dollar - so I end up paying like 100's of Rand for a game. I am only able to buy a new game every 6 months or so. How many games do you want to buy and how frequently do you want a new game?

[grogmaster]

ORIGINAL: Ashcloud

Are you questioning the fact that management vacationed on an exotic island last year? Please don't make me call you out on this one.

What is wrong with going on an exotic island vacation? I would go if I could.

The emphasis here is on your word "could". If you can spend that type of money on a vacation then your developers must be doing pretty damn well, or you're hogging all the money!

[histgamer]

"Now imagine what kind of absurdly low return developers who sell for under $10 on steam are getting? Either they need to strip down on quality to a huge degree and turn the game into a shallow app like game or they need to sell hundreds of thousands of copies to even come close to maintaining the type of wages even a medium sized developer would have had in the 90s and lets face it, while there are many steam success stories there is no way that the majority of developers on steam are selling hundreds of thousands of copies per year, only a handful will."

I added the above to my post.

Also I have never seen a MMO that really competes with any of the games Matrix offers and almost all the Free to play games don't fit the genre either as they are often far more shallow gaming experiences and geared toward the mass market not the wargaming market, sure they are free, but you get what you pay for, and if you actually pay on those games most dedicated and engaged gamers in those games will spend far more than what Matrix charges for their games, further the developers of "free" MMO's expect the paying portion of their client base to spend 60+ on them and subsidize the experience for all the other players.

I'm also not sure how piracy is relevant to your argument. Sure you could argue higher prices drives people to piracy but the concept that the number of sales lost to piracy could totally be replaced is false. I would venture to bet well over half, if not the vast majority of pirated games would be pirated regardless of prices. Sure lower prices could cut piracy down somewhat but I doubt more than 20% of people who pirate games would pay for the game even if it was 1/2 the price and I haven't seen any data proving that pricing in of itself would destroy piracy. There is still tons of music piracy that occurs and movie piracy despite numerous free and cheap alternatives such as places like Crackle, Netflix, and iTunes. Being able to get any song you want for pretty much .99 cents doesn't stop most people from stealing it.

[grogmaster]

ORIGINAL: grogmaster

ORIGINAL: Ashcloud

Are you questioning the fact that management vacationed on an exotic island last year? Please don't make me call you out on this one.

What is wrong with going on an exotic island vacation? I would go if I could.

The emphasis here is on your word "could". If you can spend that type of money on a vacation then your developers must be doing pretty damn well, or you're hogging all the money!

I'd be lucky if I can afford one per year at full price. And it has to be a damn good game too, and for the last 3 years I've been disappointed in my purchases.

[Greyshaft]

+1

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

At the risk of starting some kind of stupid argument or flame war. Grog please do US a favor and stop talking as if your the self appointed ambassador for all wargamers. Let other people speak for themselves, there may be others who feel like you do but it's not your place to speak for them nor do you represent the views of everyone.

[rhondabrwn]

ORIGINAL: grogmaster

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I'm more of a collector, so I snatch up games at discount on Gamer's Gate because these days (now retired) I'm at the point where paying more than $5 is often beyond my cash flow for a game that I might mess around with for a few hours and then never touch it again. When I pay full price, it's for a game that is either a sequel to a series I already do play extensively (All the Tiller's ACW titles, for example, rushed right out to get Campaign Overland); or something that I have been following in development (Witp:AE, WiTE, and MWIF, for example); or a nice package option such as the DW discount for the expansions; or the 35% off Christmas Sale. That said, I have no problem with Matrix pricing, but would like to see a "loyalty" program of some sort.

If you are a collector and you spend money on games in the fashion in which you describe then I must congratulate you because you either (1) picked the most acceptable college degree for financial means or (2) saw your share of luck on Wall Street. Because, I, paying for necessities as I do in this economy, which seems to be a greater share of my income than other years, have little set aside for gaming. This amount is less than it was other years, as my profession has not changed. If you are a collector of Matrix Games, then I'd say you are doing better off than most of the wargamers that play Matrix Games (buying games just for the sake of owning them rather than for the sake of playing them) and you likely represent only 20% of the wargaming PC market.

Having said that, what you say and your position financially, I cannot relate to and therefore seems to be irrelevant to my grievances altogether.

You are new around here or you would know that I retired two years ago from teaching Social Studies on the Navajo Indian Reservation. I have bought a 40 acre "off the grid" horse ranch, am near achieving self-sufficiency on food, water, and power. I go in to town maybe once every week to pick up mail, hay, animal feed, and sometimes a few grocery items (bulk flour, beans, oatmeal, rice, frozen or canned veggies if on sale, and baking supplies mostly - as little processed items as possible). I occasionally buy a $5 Veggie Subway for a treat, but otherwise haven't been in any kind of restaurant in over a year and a half. My food budget is $100 a month. I bake my own bread, my chicken flock produces eggs, my goat herd will soon be producing goat cheese and milk. I sell eggs and baked goods to my neighbors for extra cash. My end of month bank account balance is usually around $6 till the pensions and social security deposit.

I can squeeze out $5 for a tiny bit of entertainment as collecting games is the only bit of excess I allow myself (and I suspect more than 20% of us are primarily collectors with only a few games that we play regularly). I don't do anything else other than running the ranch. I'm happy with nature and the 40 + living creatures that I care for (dogs, goats, chickens, and horses). I have gotten a lot more selective about what I do buy and full price games take a bit of skimping to afford these days but I still support Matrix games with at least a half dozen purchases a year.

I don't think I'm "better off" than most gamers, but I am unique in living an extremely frugal and simple lifestyle ($28,000 in Social Security and three small pensions, and $12,000 of that goes to pay for the ranch).

If anyone should be complaining about Matrix prices being too high, it should be someone like me, but I disagree with everything you've posted in any of these threads and really disapprove of the bitter tone that you take when doing it. Go start your own game company and run it the way you see fit. If you don't like Matrix/Slitherine pricing or policies, then take your business elsewhere. Why do you have to be so hateful in your tone? They've answered and explained every issue you have raised, but you just keep on going.... [:(] Please... enough already!

[Ashcloud]

I'd be lucky if I can afford one per year at full price. And it has to be a damn good game too, and for the last 3 years I've been disappointed in my purchases.

What did you buy (the last 3) and why were you disappointed? I do get your frustration at the cost of living and the hard times so many are going through (I also long to be able to afford the games I want - I really want the full version of SPWAW and TAOWIII).

[Ashcloud]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I can squeeze out $5 for a tiny bit of entertainment as collecting games is the only bit of excess I allow myself (and I suspect more than 20% of us are primarily collectors with only a few games that we play regularly). I don't do anything else other than running the ranch. I'm happy with nature and the 40 + living creatures that I care for (dogs, goats, chickens, and horses). I have gotten a lot more selective about what I do buy and full price games take a bit of skimping to afford these days but I still support Matrix games with at least a half dozen purchases a year.

I don't think I'm "better off" than most gamers, but I am unique in living an extremely frugal and simple lifestyle ($28,000 in Social Security and three small pensions, and $12,000 of that goes to pay for the ranch).

If anyone should be complaining about Matrix prices being too high, it should be someone like me, but I disagree with everything you've posted in any of these threads and really disapprove of the bitter tone that you take when doing it. Go start your own game company and run it the way you see fit. If you don't like Matrix/Slitherine pricing or policies, then take your business elsewhere. Why do you have to be so hateful in your tone? They've answered and explained every issue you have raised, but you just keep on going.... [:(] Please... enough already!

I totally agree on the negative tone of some of these posts. I also understand living in these times can be tough but there is no reason for lack of respect and civility in a forum like this - no need to get personal or bitter.

rhondabrwn: what games do you play? and I like your PDF demo idea...

[Borg917]

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

Finally, an idea regarding sales of back catalogue from Tim Stone a reporter at RPS has a certain resonance, as coincidentally we have been looking at doing something along the lines he suggests. Firstly we have to hear back from our developer partners, as we don’t cut their prices without consultation and they may not be interested. So how about this for an idea, as Tim seems keen to help us. We host a promotion, sale of the week and run it in conjunction with RPS.

If the developers agree, and you can offer these games in a £50 package, take my money please! [:)]

Spartan (2005)
Tin Soldiers: Alexander The Great (2004)
Tin Soldiers Julius Caesar (2005)

Flashpoint Germany (2005)
Norm Koger’s The Operational Art of War III (1998-2006) (already have this, but what the heck
Close Combat Modern Tactics (2007)

Battles In Normandy (2004)
Carriers At War (2007)
John Tiller’s Campaign Series (1999-2007)

Gary Grigsby’s War Between The States (2008)
Birth of America 2 (2008)
John Tiller’s Battleground Civil War (1995-2007)

Napoleon In Italy (2007)
John Tiller’s Battleground Napoleonic Wars (1996-2007)
Napoleon’s Campaigns (2007)

A deal on the latest version of Harpoon wouldn't hurt either [:D]

[rhondabrwn]

Ashley, the games I play regularly are mostly John Tiller's American Civil War campaign series and a bit of his Napoleonic series. My favorite game of all time is HPS Campaign Gettysburg and if I can claim to be an expert in any game, that is the one. I thought that when I retired from teaching I would have all the time in the world to finally play the many, many games I have collected, but actually I only played a few turns of Gettysburg battle I started back 2010! Turns out that ranching is hard work and the more animals I got and the more I worked at self-sufficiency (baking bread, making cheese, cutting firewood for winter) plus just the maintenance of running a solar/wind power system and doing mundane things like fence repair, chicken coop construction, horse training and grooming, goat herding and so much more just took the whole day (still mostly does). It's only been since last December that I've gotten pretty heavily into new game purchases. Got a little help from solar credits on my taxes that earned me a refund.

I have 3 terrabytes of hard drives on each of my two computers so I've got hundreds of games installed and more sitting on the shelves. There are also shelves of board games, though I don't buy those anymore and want to sell my collection if anyone's interested.

I also own about every flight simulator available. In addition, I have a recording studio set up on my sun porch and one computer dedicated to Cubase and video and music processing (haven't had much time for those either).

I may be poor now, but I did accumulate lots of toys in my working years!

If you are interested in some PBEM, what games are your favorite? I probably own them LOL

[Ashcloud]

ORIGINAL: Borg917


If the developers agree, and you can offer these games in a £50 package, take my money please! [:)]

Spartan (2005)
Tin Soldiers: Alexander The Great (2004)
Tin Soldiers Julius Caesar (2005)

Flashpoint Germany (2005)
Norm Koger’s The Operational Art of War III (1998-2006) (already have this, but what the heck
Close Combat Modern Tactics (2007)

Battles In Normandy (2004)
Carriers At War (2007)
John Tiller’s Campaign Series (1999-2007)

Gary Grigsby’s War Between The States (2008)
Birth of America 2 (2008)
John Tiller’s Battleground Civil War (1995-2007)

Napoleon In Italy (2007)
John Tiller’s Battleground Napoleonic Wars (1996-2007)
Napoleon’s Campaigns (2007)

A deal on the latest version of Harpoon wouldn't hurt either [:D]

Dang, that would force me to find another $100 for the games I could not do without at that price and feel depressed about the other $100 I would need to get everything I wanted.

[Ashcloud]

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

Ashley, the games I play regularly are mostly John Tiller's American Civil War campaign series and a bit of his Napoleonic series. My favorite game of all time is HPS Campaign Gettysburg and if I can claim to be an expert in any game, that is the one. I thought that when I retired from teaching I would have all the time in the world to finally play the many, many games I have collected, but actually I only played a few turns of Gettysburg battle I started back 2010! Turns out that ranching is hard work and the more animals I got and the more I worked at self-sufficiency (baking bread, making cheese, cutting firewood for winter) plus just the maintenance of running a solar/wind power system and doing mundane things like fence repair, chicken coop construction, horse training and grooming, goat herding and so much more just took the whole day (still mostly does). It's only been since last December that I've gotten pretty heavily into new game purchases. Got a little help from solar credits on my taxes that earned me a refund.

I have 3 terrabytes of hard drives on each of my two computers so I've got hundreds of games installed and more sitting on the shelves. There are also shelves of board games, though I don't buy those anymore and want to sell my collection if anyone's interested.

I also own about every flight simulator available. In addition, I have a recording studio set up on my sun porch and one computer dedicated to Cubase and video and music processing (haven't had much time for those either).

I may be poor now, but I did accumulate lots of toys in my working years!

If you are interested in some PBEM, what games are your favorite? I probably own them LOL

Wow, you are busy - I would love to get into the Civil War and Napoleonic stuff sometime (very interested in the 19th Century at the moment). My time is pretty well spread between John Tiller Campaign Series and all the mods for it at theblitz.org, Squad Battles, Steel Panthers and Battle Academy. I recently got WitPAE and BOA2 - (which I am looking into at the moment) as well as Kharkov Disaster on the Donets. I would be very happy to play any of them against you - are you a member at theblitz.org?

[wodin]

I think borg means fifty for the lot as Tim mentioned not fifty for a pack of three.

Id def buy a few of those packs at anywhere between £10 and £20 purely out of curiosity and know if I don't like them it's not much wasted.