strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

About moving 4 Commonwealth infantry into Greece (or Yugoslavia). If the infantry are available, 2 transports can do the trick in a single turn, provided an HQ is available to reorganize the transports once they return from delivering the first 2 units.
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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by Extraneous »

Impulse one: Germany aligns Rumania, Italy moves a SCS with a Div into the Eastern Med (Italy is neutral and neutral countries can only move a single ship as a naval move. So you can move a max of two DIV to threathen Greece) and is, together with the massing of units in Albania, advertising it's intent to attack Greece.

Impulse two: Allied impulse. Naval impulse for CW and France to move some CL into the Italian waters, thus cutting supply to Albania, if the Italians DoW France or the CW.

Impulse three: Italy DoW's France and Greece, Germany DoW's Greece and aligns Bulgaria. CW takes control of the Greeks. Italy takes a land impulse and moves into Greece. An Italian NAV is used to get the Albanian units in supply, using the only Italian air activity allowed. So no all out attack in the surprise impulse on the remaining French fleet in French ports. France loses the CL it moved into Italian waters? It doesn't care. One Bulgarian unit moves into Greece. Two Rumanian units move into Bulgaria. There will not be an attack on Greek units, since the Italian units are either disorganised for movement through the mountians or not in contact with the Greek MTN. This ends the mighty Italian surprise impulse against the French and the Greeks. Didn't I mentioned before that the Italian activities limits are very, very poor?

Italian activities limits
Land action: 1x air missions, 1x naval move, 2x land moves, unlimited land attack, and 3x rail moves.
Combined action: 3x air missions, 1x naval move, 2x land moves, 1x land attack, and 1x rail moves.

The Italian set up:
Italy or Albania:
Graziani (HQ-A), Libia MECH, 1x MOT, 1x INF, Alpini MTN, 1x GUN, 1x INF division, and 1x FROG

Libya:
1x INF, 1x GAR, 1x GUN, and 2x TERR

Ethiopia or Italian Somaliland:
1x INF and 2x TERR

Reserves
IV INF, XIII GARR, Milan MIL, and Rome MIL

Europe
Balbo (HQ-I), 2x FTR 2, 1x LND 3, 1x NAV 2, and 4x Pilots

Aircraft pool: 2x FTR 2 and 1x LND 2
If the set up gives you some latitude (e.g. “Europe” or “Burma”), you can set up the unit in any hex you or a co-operating major power controls in that place.

A neutral major power can only set up in hexes it controls.

My initial set up:
Northern Italy: Graziani (HQ-A) (5 (2)), Libya MECH (5-5), 2x FTR 2, 1x NAV 2, and 1x FROG

Naples: 1x INF

Taranto: 1x INF division and 1x SCS

Albania: Balbo (HQ-I) (3 (3)), 1x MOT, Alpini MTN, and 1x LND 3

Libya: 1x INF, 1x GAR, 1x GUN, and 2x TERR

Ethiopia or Italian Somaliland: 1x INF and 2x TERR

Aircraft pool: 2x FTR 2 and 1x LND 2

Sep/Oct 1939
Naples: 1x INF breaks down into 2x INF divisions.

Nov/Dec 1939
Italian 1st Impulse: 1 Heavy cruiser with 1x INF division to Eastern Mediterranean Sea, sea box 4.

Allied 1st Impulse: CW and France choose a Naval impulse to move some CL into the Italian Coast, thus cutting supply to Albania, if the Italians DoW France or the CW.

Axis 2nd Impulse: Italy DoW's France and Greece, Germany DoW's Greece and aligns Bulgaria.
You cannot trace a supply path into a sea area that contains:
• an enemy CV, SCS or aircraft unit with an air-to-sea factor;
• unless it also contains a surface naval unit, or aircraft unit with an air-to-sea factor, (SiF option 11: convoy, TRS, or AMPH only) controlled by any major power or minor country at war with that enemy unit.

The Italians flies 1x NAV 2 into the Italian Coast, sea box 4. Albania is still in supply.

Weather is Fair.

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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by Centuur »

First: your deployment in Albania means the Italians have only about 15 combat factors to attack the Greeks, who have a 12 factor defense with the MTN alone in the mountains. It is far to few to make a succesfull attack on Greece, even with 4 additional Bulgarian factors. The Rumanians are lagging one impulse behind and can also only field about 5 factors. This give you a 2-1 at most (and if the CW gets 2 INF into Greece, the situation gets even worse).

Second: in a land impulse, you are not allowed to make any naval moves (you think otherwise) and have an unlimited number of land moves...

Third: during a three impulses long attack in N/D 1939 in the Med, it is folly to think you will have nice weather all along. Statistics show you have a 50% opportunity for rain, storm or snow appearing each impulse. Don't expect the weather to be fair, it won't be.

Fourth: of course the Italians fly the NAV. I want to make sure as the allies that they have to do that to get the units in Albania in supply. It prevents the Italian air force from ground striking the Greeks or to port attack the French fleet in the surprise impulse, because they have only 1 air activity in a land impulse. Moving those CL into Italian waters is only to get this done. I see it as an aggressive defensive action.
As the allies, I don't expect the Italians to stay out of supply in Albania. No sir, I want to force the Italians into actions which I want them to do as the allies. That way, I control certain actions and won't get surprised by any Italian moves or am able to soften the effects of a surprise impulse by Italy against a possible DoW by Italy on either (or all) of France, Commonwealth or Greece.

Again: I would love to play the Allies against an Axis player taking these kind of risks. The problem with the Balkans in 1939 and early 1940 is simply that the German Wehrmacht is busy elsewhere. The Italian army haven't got the muscle to eliminate the Greeks alone. They need the Wehrmacht to succeed.

And finally: what is the grand strategy of the Axis? That has to be top priority. Most players start to kill Poland and France. That's an easy decision to make. But after that you've got three options:
- Sealion
- Close the MED, followed by a Sea Lion or a 1942/1943 Barbarossa
- Barbarossa

If I choose the first (which is overall a high risk, high gain operation), I won't go after the Greeks but go for a huge battle of the atlantic, build TRS and MAR and do nothing at all in the Balkans.

If I choose the second (which seems to be the best option) I'll conquer France (or Vichy it and collapse it very soon after that), kill Franco and go for Gibraltar (which isn't a walk over, but can be done, especially if Italy can grab Algeria and Morocco) and Suez. After that, well it's time for Sealion or a 1942 Barbarossa. The Balkans, perhaps somewhere between the closure of the Med and the Sealion...

If I choose for Barbarossa, I might be tempted to go for Greece if France falls soon enough so that some time is left before I can get the necessary garrison ratio's to break the Nazi-Soviet pact. But even than I have to make sure that the German Wehrmacht can get involved in Albania, because the Italian army itself is too weak to fight in the Greek mountains.

The Italians have a nice navy and a reasonable good air force, but the Italian army lacks firepower agaist all enemy's in good defensive positions...




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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

Historically, the Greeks drove the Italians back into Albania. However, they got tied down there and were unable to disengage when the Germans attacked their eastern flank from Bulgaria and Yugoslavia; the few Commonwealth units that had landed in northern Greece were easily driven south.
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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by Extraneous »

Since the Italians only get 1 naval move.

Battleships: Guilio Cesare and Conte di Cavour (11 attack factors)

Heavy cruisers: Abruzzi, Bolzano, Duca D'Aosta, E. Di Savoia, Fiume, Garibaldi, Gorizia, Pola, San Giorgio, Trento, Trieste, and Zara (35 attack factors)

Light cruisers: Attendolo, Bande Nere, Barbiano, Bari, Cadorna, Colleoni, Diaz, Guissano, Montecuccoli, and Taranto (15 attack factors)

Carrying 2x INF divisions

2x Submarines

Will be "Fighting your way through" the French Light cruisers and into the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, sea box 3.

If you only sent 1 French Light cruiser its toast.

If you sent all 4 French Light cruisers your attack factor would be 6 while my SCS attack factor would be 61 (I just don't feel like figuring the subs attack factors).

I would use my surprise points to reduce your odds hopefully to 1 to 2 where I would abort 1 Light cruiser.

The French losses without modification would be 1 sunk and 2 damaged.

Now if the CW wishes to attempt a naval combat at sea all it's going to cost them is...
22. The CW or France or both declare war on Italy (1 USA entry chit and a 20% chance of another will be removed from the USA (Ge/It) entry pool).
If the CW and France don't declare war on the Italy in the same impulse this done separately for both the CW and France.

Has the USA enough chits on the Nov/Dec 1939 turn?



I now have 3x INF divisions to invade Athens.

I can add 1x LND 3 and 3 points of shore bombardment. This gives me odds of 9 to 1 against the Greek notational (if you didn't leave a unit in Athens).

You get a +1 for the city.

I get a + 18 for having odds of 9 to 1.

Greece suffers a complete conquest. Oh, yes I over stacked when I take Athens and loose 1x INF division (if I don't get a breakthrough).


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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
(I just don't feel like figuring the subs attack factors).

Just as well, subs can't move in the same naval move as ships.
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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
I now have 3x INF divisions to invade Athens.

I can add 1x LND 3 and 3 points of shore bombardment. This gives me odds of 9 to 1 against the Greek notational (if you didn't leave a unit in Athens).

You get a +1 for the city.

I get a + 18 for having odds of 9 to 1.

Greece suffers a complete conquest. Oh, yes I over stacked when I take Athens and loose 1x INF division (if I don't get a breakthrough).
You can only move two units with an Italian Combined. Best divs would still be '2' factor units. Two of those halved for invading gives two factors, tripled to 6 at most with shore bombardment and ground support. Defense is 1 plus 1 for the city, minus 1 for Surprise. For 2D10 the City defensive mod cancels the notional mod. Attack would be a +12. Probability of success is 88%, because any result where you lose more than one unit is a failure.

You need the Unlimited Breakdown option "On" to get two 2-strength Divs. In normal WiFFE you would have a 1 and a 2 and could only attack with a net of 4.5 factors, yielding a +10 after rounding up and a 77% chance for success.

You would not be overstacked even if you could move all three Divs, but if you could have been overstacked, you would not be allowed to make the move because you cannot voluntarily overstack.

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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by brian brian »

The best amphibious attack the Italians can ever get in 1939 is 6 factors when in range of their land-based air, some of which has good range. They need 4 impulses to assemble such a landing, or be at war with a Major Power. To get to 6 factors in WiF:FE, they have to be invading from a sea zone with an Italian port so a Motorized division could land from a TRS, or invade from a lower box and increase the notional. MWIF will allow them to get 2 infantry divisions instead, increasing their flexibility a little.

In an average game the Allies put all 3 US Entry chits in the European pool to start, and many CW players use them (perhaps unless they are on the high side) to attack Italy on the 1st turn, taking a shot at the Italian TRS while surprised Italian FTR can't intercept. After that heavy French and Royal Navy forces dare the Italians to leave port and fight.

In the Balkans - Italian, Bulgarian, and Rumanian forces can not co-operate and can achieve little in Greece until Germans arrive, more likely in 1940. Rumanians activated in 1939 could not even march to Greece until late summer 1940 at best unless Yugoslavia was somehow involved in the war. Rumanians activated in Jan/Feb 1940 would not make it to a Greek front until the spring of 1940 at best and would add little.

Most German players allow the claim on Bessarabia, unless the Russians are attempting the claim simultaneously with some other scheme elsewhere and don't have much force on the Rumanian border. Some German players like to block the possibility of any claim by attacking Yugoslavia and aligning Rumania on the 2nd Axis impulse. The von Bock HQ, a medium bomber and a few INF can keep Prince Paul bottled up just fine until 1940. Sure, the Allies could land on the Croatian coast. My my my, says the spider to the fly.





I think the best use of early Axis aggression and the resulting USE penalties is to break down the Italian MTN division at start and use the mountain division to land in Algeria on an Italian surprise impulse. This pressures the Allies more directly than a forlorn 1939 Axis campaign in Greece.
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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by Centuur »

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The best amphibious attack the Italians can ever get in 1939 is 6 factors when in range of their land-based air, some of which has good range. They need 4 impulses to assemble such a landing, or be at war with a Major Power. To get to 6 factors in WiF:FE, they have to be invading from a sea zone with an Italian port so a Motorized division could land from a TRS, or invade from a lower box and increase the notional. MWIF will allow them to get 2 infantry divisions instead, increasing their flexibility a little.

In an average game the Allies put all 3 US Entry chits in the European pool to start, and many CW players use them (perhaps unless they are on the high side) to attack Italy on the 1st turn, taking a shot at the Italian TRS while surprised Italian FTR can't intercept. After that heavy French and Royal Navy forces dare the Italians to leave port and fight.

In the Balkans - Italian, Bulgarian, and Rumanian forces can not co-operate and can achieve little in Greece until Germans arrive, more likely in 1940. Rumanians activated in 1939 could not even march to Greece until late summer 1940 at best unless Yugoslavia was somehow involved in the war. Rumanians activated in Jan/Feb 1940 would not make it to a Greek front until the spring of 1940 at best and would add little.

Most German players allow the claim on Bessarabia, unless the Russians are attempting the claim simultaneously with some other scheme elsewhere and don't have much force on the Rumanian border. Some German players like to block the possibility of any claim by attacking Yugoslavia and aligning Rumania on the 2nd Axis impulse. The von Bock HQ, a medium bomber and a few INF can keep Prince Paul bottled up just fine until 1940. Sure, the Allies could land on the Croatian coast. My my my, says the spider to the fly.





I think the best use of early Axis aggression and the resulting USE penalties is to break down the Italian MTN division at start and use the mountain division to land in Algeria on an Italian surprise impulse. This pressures the Allies more directly than a forlorn 1939 Axis campaign in Greece.
I agree on this. Put the three US entry chits in the Italian/German box. In the first allied impulse the CW fleet with CV's sails agressively into Italians water. Now if the Italians don't respond with a DoW on the CW, the CW tries to kill the Italian TRS in the surprise impulse during port attacks. Kill the TRS and the Italians are crippled. These kind of allied actions are those which gives the Italians something to think about: to DoW the CW or not to DoW them...
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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by SLAAKMAN »

Centuur,
If the weather stays good in SO 1939, Germany should, apart from conquering Poland and Denmark, try to conquer the Netherlands (and if possible next impulse Belgium too...). They need the resources and the hexes on France before winter comes along. Now, if the Axis are really, really lucky with the weather staying nice in the first turn of the game, you might even see the demise of France happening... In one game, I lost France in SO 1939 due to continuing nice weather and the turn refusing to end together with a couple of very nice die rolls for Germany on attacks that turn (attacks which go into the area of: "well, the turn will end soon, so let's take a few low odds attacks while the weather is still nice and soften up the French a little bit"). How I hated the die that first turn as the allies...
Doh! Dangit Centuur, that early French Gambit is one of my favorite tricks to pull on the Entente!!
Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by Extraneous »

[:)] I really enjoy these discussions on the rules. [:)]

The CW can align Greece if France (29 hexes distant) and the USSR (29 hexes distant) decline to align Greece.
If there is more than one eligible major power, offer the minor to the major power whose capital city is closest to the minor’s capital (any home country in the case of the Commonwealth). If it declines, offer it to the next closest, and so on.

ORIGINAL: Centuur
First: your deployment in Albania means the Italians have only about 15 combat factors to attack the Greeks, who have a 12 factor defense with the MTN alone in the mountains. It is far to few to make a successful attack on Greece, even with 4 additional Bulgarian factors. The Rumanians are lagging one impulse behind and can also only field about 5 factors. This gives you a 2-1 at most (and if the CW gets 2 INF into Greece, the situation gets even worse).

I did not attack with the units in Albania.
ORIGINAL: Centuur
Second: in a land impulse, you are not allowed to make any naval moves (you think otherwise) and have an unlimited number of land moves...

Who said I chose a Land action (please see my post #323 on the AI for MWiF-Italy thread)?

A Land action gives unlimited land moves, unlimited land attacks, and 1x Ground support missions but no Naval movement.
A Combined action gives 2 land moves, 1 land attack (just enough), 3x Ground support missions and 1 Naval movement.

Both have unlimited shore bombardment.

ORIGINAL: Centuur
Third: during a three impulses long attack in N/D 1939 in the Med, it is folly to think you will have nice weather all along. Statistics show you have a 50% opportunity for rain, storm or snow appearing each impulse. Don't expect the weather to be fair, it won't be.

Were dealing with an invasion on impulse 2 not impulse 3.

ORIGINAL: Centuur
Fourth: of course the Italians fly the NAV. I want to make sure as the allies that they have to do that to get the units in Albania in supply. It prevents the Italian air force from ground striking the Greeks or to port attack the French fleet in the surprise impulse, because they have only 1 air activity in a land impulse. Moving those CL into Italian waters is only to get this done. I see it as an aggressive defensive action.
As the allies, I don't expect the Italians to stay out of supply in Albania. No sir, I want to force the Italians into actions, which I want them to do as the allies. That way, I control certain actions and won't get surprised by any Italian moves or am able to soften the effects of a surprise impulse by Italy against a possible DoW by Italy on either (or all) of France, Commonwealth or Greece.

1) If the French SCS are not around after I fight my way through the CW is not an enemy and has no effect on supply.

2) Albania would be in supply and there would be no need to fly the NAV.

3) I could just as easily have used the NAV to port strike the French fleet in port.

4) So what if Albania is not in supply I'm not going to attack with them.

And finally: what is the grand strategy of the Axis? That has to be top priority. Most players start to kill Poland and France. That's an easy decision to make. But after that you've got three options:
- Sealion
- Close the MED, followed by a Sea Lion or a 1942/1943 Barbarossa
- Barbarossa

- Close the MED (Operation Sunflower)

Include Increase production.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Just as well, subs can't move in the same naval move as ships.

Correct (keep me honest Paul!)

"Each group of units you move is called a task force. A task force can contain any number of surface naval units or any number of SUBs. You can’t have surface naval units and SUBs in the same task force".

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
You can only move two units with an Italian Combined. Best divs would still be '2' factor units. Two of those halved for invading gives two factors, tripled to 6 at most with shore bombardment and ground support. Defense is 1 plus 1 for the city, minus 1 for Surprise. For 2D10 the City defensive mod cancels the notional mod. Attack would be a +12. Probability of success is 88%, because any result where you lose more than one unit is a failure.

Correct You can only move two units with an Italian Combined action.

"Embarking and transporting land or aircraft units does not count against limits on the activities of land or aircraft units."

"Each unit which invades counts as 1 land move. Each invasion counts as 1 land attack."

Correct "Invading MAR units have their normal combat factors. Halve the combat factors of other invading units".

Correct "Each unit which invades counts as 1 land move. Each invasion counts as 1 land attack".

But a 2-3 INF division and a 1-3 INF division rounds up to the same value as 2x 2-3 INF divisions.

(2 / 0.5 = 1) + (2 / 0.5 = 1) = 2.

(2 / 0.5 = 1) + (1 / 0.5 = 0.5) = 1.5 rounded up to 2.

Breaking down
You build divisions in the usual way (see 13.6.5 Building units). Alternatively, you can break down a face-up corps or army that isn’t in an enemy ZOC into divisions at the start of the production step. Each corps or army breaks down into 1 division of the same type and 1 INF or MOT division (your choice). SS corps break down into 1 equivalent SS division and 1 SS or normal INF or MOT division.

When you break down a corps or army, you can select any divisions from your force pools but their total combat factors can’t exceed half (rounding up) those of the corps or army you break down.

If there aren’t enough divisions in your force pools to break down a corps or army, you can remove them from anywhere on the maps to make up the shortfall.

So a 3-3 INF or 4-4 INF would break down into 2x 1-3 infantry divisions.

In order to get a 2-3 INF division the corps to be broken down would have to have at least 5 attack factors (5 / 2 = 3).

The only 3 land units available to the Italians in 1939 would be:
Rome MIL (5-3) (res) (this unit is not available until war is declared)
Rome MOT (5-4)
Alpini MTN (5-4) (1939)

So you would need to get the Rome MOT (5-4) break it down in mainland Italy at set up into 1x (1-4) MOT division and 1x (2-3) INF division.
The (1-4) MOT division would have to be moved due to stacking limitations.
The (1-3) INF division would be moved into the same port as the (2-3) INF division.

Then using a Combined action on the second Axis impulse Italy can DoW France and Greece. And Invade Athens if a land unit is not there.

1x (2-3) INF division (2 / 0.5 = 1) and 1x (1-3) INF division (1 / 0.5 = 0.5) = 1.5 rounded up to 2.
Ground support 1x LND (2 or 3 doubled for surprise to 4 or 6 reduced to 2 for combat factors in the invasion) = 2
Shore bombardment = 2

The odds would be 6 to 1 for +12.
Clear city hex = -1.
Surprise impulse = +1.
Total +12

2d10 chart rolls 14 (2+12) to 32 (20+12)

Using the Assault column (which should be defenders choice)
Invasion fails: 20% (2d10 rolls of: 2,3,4, and 6) (2d10 chart values: 14,15,16, and 19)
Invasion succeeds: 80% (chance of loosing 1x (1-3) INF division 12%)


Since there has been a question on the weather it sounds like a good time to discuss rule 22.1 Intelligence (option 63).
24.4.7 The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
Intelligence points: The USSR (2), Germany (2), Italy (2), Japan (1)

Nov/Dec 1939. Italy, the USA and the USSR are neutral and can’t attempt to gain intelligence points.
.

1x BP would give Germany 1x Intelligence operation (2x dice rolls or 1x multiple).

If Germanys dice rolls are higher than the CW, France, and China.

Germany could spend intelligence points and "Secretly roll the next weather roll (or examine the next one if already rolled)".


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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Were dealing with an invasion on impulse 2 not impulse 3.
Impossible. The sides in the game alternate impulses. Ergo in turn 1 all odd numbered impulses are axis ones. You have long been laboring under the misconception that an impulse consists of both sides taking a turn at moving and fighting. Not true.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
Correct "Each unit which invades counts as 1 land move. Each invasion counts as 1 land attack".

But a 2-3 INF division and a 1-3 INF division rounds up to the same value as 2x 2-3 INF divisions.

(2 / 0.5 = 1) + (2 / 0.5 = 1) = 2.

(2 / 0.5 = 1) + (1 / 0.5 = 0.5) = 1.5 rounded up to 2.
If you attack with just those 2 units yes. But then you only have a +4 (2D10). What you are missing is that you cannot "more than double" your attack factors with shore bombardment and ground support. The rounding only happens at the end. So you get 1.5 tripled to 4.5 and rounded to 5, as I explained previously.
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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by Centuur »

The CW would be very stupid if they don't put the Greek INF into Athens to prevent an surprise impulse invasion which might get a lucky Italian die roll. The Italians can't reach the MTN, especially with the low number of combat factors placed in Albania...
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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by Extraneous »

Impossible. The sides in the game alternate impulses. Ergo in turn 1 all odd numbered impulses are axis ones. You have long been laboring under the misconception that an impulse consists of both sides taking a turn at moving and fighting. Not true.

Since you bring this up days after the original concept (where you stated the invasion couldn't be done). I'll make it simple (even for you).

Since I have NO idea what the other players will do I am numbering them for the Axis only.


And since you are being so picky here's one for you.

YOU ARE LABORING UNDER A MISCONCEPTION

The impulses are done by initiative so the Allies could have the odd impulses instead of the Axis.
6.2 Effect of Initiative
The side that won the initiative now decides which side has the first impulse of this turn. That side is called ‘the first side’. Note: who goes first doesn’t affect who has the initiative.

I still have enough units to get 2x (2-3) INF. The invasion can succeed.




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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by Greyshaft »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
...

YOU ARE LABORING UNDER A MISCONCEPTION

The impulses are done by initiative so the Allies could have the odd impulses instead of the Axis.

That is true for all subsequent turns, but I believe on turn one of the 1939 game the Axis *always* moves first (and must DOW Poland etc etc)
If that didn't happen then there would be no war in the Allied first impulse ...
/Greyshaft
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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Since you bring this up days after the original concept (where you stated the invasion couldn't be done).
You're confusing me with someone else. I gave you the odds for a successful invasion attacking either with 2 x 2s or with a 2 and a 1.
ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Since I have NO idea what the other players will do...
There's a statement I can agree with.
Paul
brian brian
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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by brian brian »

The Italians don't get a 2-3 Infantry division in their force pool until 1941 or so. I hope MWiF doesn't change that.

To get a 2 factor division they have to break down the MTN corps at start.

I had the # of impulses wrong to get a 6 factor invasion off on the first turn (assuming no Major Power DOW - only 3 impulses if they move a TRS out to sea with 2 divisions on board.)



Although many Allied players DOW the Italians ASAP, lately I don't favor that as the Allies. US Entry can be that big in the game. Let the Italians add a chit to your pool, and react to the result with a steady stream of cheap infantry landed in front of the weak Italian land units.

If this happens to be an Italian war with France and Greece, same response, and all the better. Make Italy give you a 2nd chit to launch war on the Brits later. Give those French BBs something to do for a couple turns, better than letting Vichy have them anyway. Italy is not going anywhere in Greece in the first winter of the war, especially if neutral CW TRS can land the Sydney and London Militia without even risking interception.
Extraneous
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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by Extraneous »

paulderynck
Sorry Paul I was only asking if 1x (2-3) INF division 1x (1-3) INF division being used in an invasion would be the same as 2x (2-3) INF divisions


[/quote]
brian brian

Italian 3rd INF division (2-3) 1941

What about with unlimited break down?

Centuur & Greyshaft
Impossible. The sides in the game alternate impulses. Ergo in turn 1 all odd numbered impulses are axis ones. You have long been laboring under the misconception that an impulse consists of both sides taking a turn at moving and fighting. Not true.

I believe I have made it abundantly clear we are NOT talking about September/October 1939 but November/December 1939 which are different turns.

Otherwise how could the USSR and Rumania have come to peace since the peace step is at the end of the turn?

Example: Japan declares war on the Commonwealth and attempts to invade the mountain hex east of Port Moresby with a 5-factor MAR from the 2 section and a 5 factor INF from the 3 section in the Bismarck sea. Only the Commonwealth notional unit is defending, but Port Moresby is occupied by a Commonwealth INF. The weather is rain.

The notional unit is usually worth 1, but you add 1 for the adjacent corps, 2 because a land unit is invading from the 2 section (the 1* shore bombardment modifier becomes 2 because of the rain) and 1 because a land unit is invading from the 3 section. You subtract 1 because it is a surprise impulse. This total of 4 doubles to 8 for the mountain.

The invading INF’s factors are halved, so Japan’s total combat factors are 2.5 + 5 = 7.5. After adding 7.5 factors of shore bombardment and 4.5 factors of ground support, the invading total is 19.5 combat factors (rounding to 20). This results in odds of 2:1 (20:8). The rain drops the final odds 1 level to 3:2 (+1 due to the notional unit being automatically face-down). Kasigi regrets not invading from a closer port, allowing an invasion from a higher section of the sea-box (if they had all invaded from the 4 section, the odds would have been 9:1 + 1 (20:2, less an odds level for the rain).

Using the example above I see where we are missing a modifier.

2x (2-3) INF divisions times 0.5 = 2
+2 factors of shore bombardment
+2 factors of ground support

The odds would be 6 to 1 for +12.

Clear city hex = -1.
Surprise impulse = +1.
Due to the notional unit being automatically face-down = +1
Total +13

Using the Assault column (which should be defenders choice)
Invasion fails: 15% (2d10 rolls of: 2,3, and 5) (2d10 chart values: 15,16, and 19)
Invasion succeeds: 85% (chance of loosing 1x (2-3) INF division 8.5%)

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)
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paulderynck
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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Using the example above I see where we are missing a modifier.

2x (2-3) INF divisions times 0.5 = 2
+2 factors of shore bombardment
+2 factors of ground support

The odds would be 6 to 1 for +12.

Clear city hex = -1.
Surprise impulse = +1.
Due to the notional unit being automatically face-down = +1
Total +13

Using the Assault column (which should be defenders choice)
Invasion fails: 15% (2d10 rolls of: 2,3, and 5) (2d10 chart values: 15,16, and 19)
Invasion succeeds: 85% (chance of loosing 1x (2-3) INF division 8.5%)
Do not confuse die roll modifiers with combat strength modifiers.

Notional is 1 plus 1 for city minus 1 for surprise equals 1.

Die roll modifier is minus 1 for city plus 1 for notional equals zero.

Attack is a +12.
Paul
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RE: strategy and its repercussions in the Balkans

Post by Centuur »

As I've said already, as the Allies, I will put the Greek 4-3 INF into Athens, thus making a surprise invasion of Athens a high risk attack. There isn't a better place for this unit at set up...

Defender doesn't include the notional unit. This gives the Greeks 4 combat factors. A 3-2 attack with a -1 modifier for the city, giving a +2...


+2 means that 15, 16, 18, 19 and 20 means succes. 17% succes rate... Go ahead mr. Mussolini...



Peter
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