Bug Report - slow conversion of obsolete elements

[rmonical]

All - let's keep this thread clean and continue to vent on the armaments thread. Let the poor developers get their heads around this problem without a lot of extraneous posts.

The purpose of this thread is to summarize my results from analysis of the armaments thread. I believe the exceptionally slow conversion of ground elements that are going obsolete or are already obsolete qualifies as a bug.

This is the 7.06beta version.

The approach I used to validate the bug was to start the 44-45 campaign scenario vs. the computer on easy mode. Track the German security divisions which are still equipped with the obsolete rifle squads which went out of production on 12/43.

I then put everything in reserve. Then I put the security divisions on refit. I set TOE of all support elements to 60% and infantry units to 60%. There are plenty of armament points but few personnel points in the active pool. I did not see a divisional unit convert. Over the course of 7 turns, a total of 5 regiments converted.

Interestingly, the scenario file has 2642 39-43 style rifle squads all in security divisions. By 8/3/44 there 2601+240+65 or 2906 between the security units, pool and destroyed units list. So either some are still being produced or some are hidden at start.

As of T7, the Germans have 13,760 in the manpower pool (only 66 in the active pool).

My guess is that the system does not perform the conversion even though the manpower is in the converted from squads because there is insufficient manpower in the active pool to convert an entire division at once. The only reason I occasionally see a regiment upgraded is when the active pool blips up enough to convert the regiment.

The change request would be to convert from old to new type ground elements using the manpower in the converted from ground elements and only go to the pool if more manpower is needed (the new element type requires more men than the old). I'm not sure if this is a hard or an easy fix. I suspect this code will be needed in WITW if it is not already there as the Germans will have the same problem.

This is also why the 43 MG conversions go so fast - far fewer men required in the pool to convert a division.

Edit: For turn 8 I disbanded some units in turn 7. The 221st division finally upgraded along with a regiment. IMHO, the hypothesis above is looking pretty solid.

[rmonical]

I'm working on a 44-45 mod to test the armaments side of the problem.

[rmonical]

I added a bunch of personnel, armaments and created some new divisions with 39-43 motorized rifle squads. On T-04 I broke them down into regiments. In T-06 one of the regiments converted. Plenty of armaments and personnel in the active pool. Even with all of the personnel in the pool, the security units also continued to convert with agonizing slowness. So it is not a resource problem.

To be specific, I took the 1 HG PG Div (never in the game), changed the MR squad to type 94, rebuilt at 40% TOE, built 5 more and deployed them all around Warsaw. Upped the manpower pool to a million and the armaments to 500K. After 4 turns, you can see what the divisions look like. MR Squads still at 40%, the rest closing in on 100.

[Helpless]

My guess is that the system does not perform the conversion even though the manpower is in the converted from squads because there is insufficient manpower in the active pool to convert an entire division at once.

Upgrade/swap outs done for each ground element independently. You don't need manpower in the pool if element having the same or lower amount of men in squad.

I've run 1944 and see elements in Security divisions are upgrading at the expected rate.

The smaller the size on the element the higher chance it will get upgraded.

[rmonical]

I've run 1944 and see elements in Security divisions are upgrading at the expected rate.

What is the expected rate?

Edit: Actually, it does not matter. Since the expected rate of element upgrades is on the slow side, should an obsolete element that has not been upgraded prevent a unit from getting replacement elements of the current type?

[Helpless]

The rate defined by the amount of units/element/elements in the pool/ etc..

[Helpless]

Since the expected rate of element upgrades is on the slow side,

It is not on the slow side. Upgrades can be really massive if conditions are met. I got all rifle squads in security division upgraded by the turn 5.

should an obsolete element that has not been upgraded prevent a unit from getting replacement elements of the current type?

Upgrade and replacement are independent processes. If ground element end date has been passed it shouldn't be produced, but should get the replacements if conditions are met.

[rmonical]

replacements if conditions are met.

Is one of the conditions sufficient squads of the new type already existing in the pool? In other words, they must be in the pool, they can not be produced this turn to be added to the unit?

[Helpless]

Is one of the conditions sufficient squads of the new type already existing in the pool? In other words, they must be in the pool, they can not be produced this turn to be added to the unit?

Yes. New elements should be in the pool when upgrade is done.

Edit: One correction, this is true for the AFV-types.

[morvael]

What about improving the code for upgrading infantry squad types (Rifle Squad, Cavalry Squad, Mech-Inf Squad, Mech-Engr Squad, Engineer Squad etc) so that it would automatically upgrade/swap those elements "in place" that is by taking (or returning) just the extra men/arm cost from the pool? This would limit the "wasted armaments" problem, as rifle squads are very numerous and they usually contain just minor changes to equipment rather than represent completely new equipment (as in guns or tanks).

Example - make a random die roll for obsolete "infantry squad type" elements similar to TOE upgrade chance and if successful do the following:
- a division has 100 obsolete Motorized Rifle Squad (1/39-12/43) elements with 10 men and build cost 10, that's 1000 men and 1000 build cost in total
- there is no upgrade patch so an alternative has to be chosen
- alternative is Motorized Rifle Squad (1/43-9/45) with 10 men and build cost 12, that's 1000 men and 1200 build cost for 100
- if there is 200 free armaments points in the pool, use it and swap 100 old squads with 100 new squads and look for another unit with obsolete elements
- if there is no free armaments points in the pool, swap 100 old squads with 83 new squads, return 170 men to the pool and stop the procedure for this turn

Of course as this is an in-place upgrade the old squads should just vanish, not return to the pool as they are being upgraded (or downgraded) to new model.

This would help to remove the unrealistic element in squad upgrades, when a completely new set of weapons has to be built and the old one is left unused.

[morvael]

Security divisions will have problems with upgrading squads as my report shows:

Code: Select all

[467] 42 Security Division -> [347] 45 Infantry Division
 Security Combat Division, 42/10 - 44/12
  Needs           Sup Fuel Ammo  Veh
  Motorized        97  105  160 1170
 +Non-Motorized   142    6  160   86
 Support: 248/315 (78.73)
 
  292 Rifle Squad #-+
   16 Cavalry Squad 
    6 Pioneer Squad (Engineer Squad) #-+
   18 81mm Mortar 
    6 75mm Infantry Gun 
   12 37mm Anti-tank Gun (AT Gun) ##-+
   12 105mm Howitzer (Artillery) 
   36 7.92mm Machine Gun (Machinegun) 
   63 50mm Mortar (Light Mortar) 
   63 7.92mm Anti-tank Rifle (Infantry-AT) 
   36 Security Squad 
  248 Support 
 
 9241 men, 48 guns, 0 AFV, CV 12.98 (5.40 @ 70)

# means their element becomes obsolete while the TOE lasts
-+ means there is no upgrade path for their element, but there are alternatives

My tests with AA guns have proven that the engine is extremely conservative when it comes to swapping old types to new types with no incentive from TOE and from upgrade path, because it doesn't feel the need to build new elements as they are not needed by any TOE, and there are numbers of old elements in the pool and in transit every turn which are enough for the engine to play with and shift them between similar units to no end.

[rmonical]

So the requirement that the target element of the upgrade be in the pool means that it got their by attrition or combat. If motorized rifle squads are produced in anticipation of need, I am not seeing it.

So here is what I think is happening.

The units which have the obsolete element are competing with units that lost the new element to attrition or combat to get that element type. They need the new element type so they can get to full strength. They cannot currently get to full strength because there are insufficient old element types.

What we are seeing is units waiting to upgrade to the new element type and are in refit mode are not getting the new elements. They are going to the units that already have the new element type even when they are not in refit mode. The production system will produce additional elements of the new element type only for units that already have them and apparently this happens after the elements in the pool are allocated out.

So, if elements in refit mode got the new element types in the pool for upgrade before units not in refit mode, then this would move the problem in the right direction. Currently, a player has to set all of the units that already have the new element types to a very low max TOE in order to give the units that have the obsolete element type a chance to upgrade.

However, my preference (and I think the more correct approach) is to allow units to upgrade to new element types directly from production, bypassing the pool. I see no compelling reason for the new element type to be in the pool.

How do the new element types get in the pool to be available for upgrade when the new element type first becomes available? Are they produced at some low level in anticipation of requirements?

It is turn 12 of my test case. 40 new stype MR squads in the pool. A bunch of regiments needing 27 to upgrade and still no joy. Not a single upgrade of the 20+ regiments waiting. I would be happy to send in the turn/scenario files.

[Helpless]

What about improving the code for upgrading infantry squad types ..

It was discussed in the past. The problem would be that all armament production was done to compensate the need (or some part of it). I'm afraid such change would be too heavy for the current development stage, but can be considered for the future releases.

[morvael]

Yes, I think it would be wise to at least consider it for the new games. The algorithm I proposed brings more reality to how infantry squads upgraded/downgraded while not requiring any changes to ground element model.

In this game all that can be done is either to lower the cost of late war infantry squad elements or increase late war ARM production even further.

edit: and also introduce TOEs that would help with swaps for the major units (eg. a new TOE on the date of new squad introduction).

[Helpless]

It is turn 12 of my test case. 40 new stype MR squads in the pool. A bunch of regiments needing 27 to upgrade and still no joy. Not a single upgrade of the 20+ regiments waiting. I would be happy to send in the turn/scenario files.

40 is very low number. Motorized Squads have different treatment. You may attach a save to the post.

[rmonical]

40 is very low number.

Well, the elements only make it to the active pool if nobody wants them. Otherwise they go into and come out of the transit pool. It looks to me like the units waiting for upgrade need elements from the active pool. I did get a regiment to upgrade to the new element type (27) on T13. After recombining the division - it zipped to 100% TOE with 54 of the obsolete element type and 121 of the '43 MR squads. Look for 1st HG PG Div near Warsaw.

[Helpless]

As I can see 39'Motorized Rifle has no upgrade set in your file. Upgrade routine will never trigger for them.

[morvael]

But in the official generic data files in current version it is also that there is no upgrade path. This was done to let both types of squads to coexist in '43, perhaps it was done to ease the swap process but it never worked that way. It will be better to make the older types available for the first half of '43 and the new one in the second half of '43 and the older ones to upgrade into the new one.

[Helpless]

But in the official generic data files in current version it is also that there is no upgrade path.

Don't know. I see the upgrade in my files (94->96). Not in the save attached.

In any case it should be there if you want to see them upgrading.

[morvael]

There is a lot of cases when we have to rely on swapping, not upgrading and both ways should work semi-efficiently.

edit: in 1.07.06 beta patch there is no upgrade path.