SU's in superior HQs

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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JeremyB
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SU's in superior HQs

Post by JeremyB »

What's the point of having SU's in superior HQs? (say, Army for Germans, Fronts for Soviets)
Can the superior HQ send them through its subordinate echelons to the front units?

Thx
gargoil
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by gargoil »

ORIGINAL: JeremyB

What's the point of having SU's in superior HQs? (say, Army for Germans, Fronts for Soviets)
Can the superior HQ send them through its subordinate echelons to the front units?

Thx

Support Unit transfers (manual or automatic) must follow the OOB structure to get from one crop (to be assigned to a subordinated) or directly to a Division (or smaller sized unit). So if you wnat 1st Corp/10th Army to get a SU from 3rd Corp/10th Army, it will have to travel thru 10th Army to get there (stopping for one or more turns there). If it were a DIFFERENT army, it would have to travel further up the command structure and back down again.
JeremyB
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by JeremyB »

I meant, will a superior HQ ever send its attached SUs to a battle of units subordinated to a subordinate HQ? Or do superioir HQs just act as transit, but never assign SUs unless the battle included units directly attached to them?
gargoil
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by gargoil »

ORIGINAL: JeremyB

I meant, will a superior HQ ever send its attached SUs to a battle of units subordinated to a subordinate HQ? Or do superioir HQs just act as transit, but never assign SUs unless the battle included units directly attached to them?

To be sure, we are going to need someone else to reply. I can tell you that I have always believed that a combat unit only gets support units from the HQ it is attached to (directly)... but of course, a unit can be attach to an HQ higher up the OOB, so could get support units directly from it.

Can anyone confirm?
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Gunnulf
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by Gunnulf »

SU can be attached to any level HQ and will stand a chance to assist in combat.

However only if within 5 hexes. So Corps level HQ are more likely (if you are organised..) to be within range of the battle.
Also the chance of commitment is reduced depending on the number of combat SU attached to the HQ. So spreading them around corps HQ stand a better chance of getting the types you you want to commit if thats important (though if you really want them in the battle you can attach directly to a Div (its then free to unattach after).

So I guess in summary if you have a tightly packed front line then assigning to higher HQ is not a problem as they can assist more potential combats if in range. But the more you stack at each HQ the smaller chance each will commit (though you get more units trying and overall should get similar commitments. However makes sense to spread them across HQ with some direct attachments for important assaults or point defense.
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gargoil
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by gargoil »

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

SU can be attached to any level HQ and will stand a chance to assist in combat.

However only if within 5 hexes. So Corps level HQ are more likely (if you are organised..) to be within range of the battle.
Also the chance of commitment is reduced depending on the number of combat SU attached to the HQ. So spreading them around corps HQ stand a better chance of getting the types you you want to commit if thats important (though if you really want them in the battle you can attach directly to a Div (its then free to unattach after).

So I guess in summary if you have a tightly packed front line then assigning to higher HQ is not a problem as they can assist more potential combats if in range. But the more you stack at each HQ the smaller chance each will commit (though you get more units trying and overall should get similar commitments. However makes sense to spread them across HQ with some direct attachments for important assaults or point defense.

This is news to me (and good news) that an HQ can send support units into a battle to a subordinate of a subordinate. Surprized me really. You are sure?

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swkuh
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by swkuh »

Can't say I'm sure of this, but there seems to be a limit to how many are ever comitted whatever the source. What support units assigned to which pieces and where is important. Popping 'em around w/o some plan is costly, as it takes a turn to allow one to activate.

Naive view, experience based, is that combat results are primarily determined by weight of force of main units. Support units, air support, artilliary all contribute to losses, though. Eventually it addsup, of course. But battle by battle seems its the main forces.
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pompack
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by pompack »

Deleted because Gunulf said the same thing better. I need to read the intermediate posts more closely[8|]
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Gunnulf
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by Gunnulf »

For Germany at least I would work on a plan of eventually (will take time and points) to set up all your Infantry Corps with 1 x Pioneer, 1 x Stug or PzJg, 1 x Mixed Flak, 3 x Art or Nebel. This will give you a good solid base of SU with a good chance of supporting combat. You can then hold more artillery and flak and spare pioneers at Army level (including heavy siege art and nebel maybe) and use these to respond across the army and maybe drill the heavy art and pioneers down to div level for specific urban attacks for example.
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The Guru
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by The Guru »

Ok, so, an Army Group HQ, or even OKH, could actually send its own attached SU's to comat, the only condition eing it's within a 5 hexes range? Is this sure?
gargoil
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by gargoil »

ORIGINAL: The Guru

Ok, so, an Army Group HQ, or even OKH, could actually send its own attached SU's to comat, the only condition eing it's within a 5 hexes range? Is this sure?

If this is true, then combats within 5 hexes of a corp HQ, Army HQ, Army Group HQ and High Command would have, even with reduced chances due to already commited SUs, significantly enhance chances of multiple support.

Up to now I always keep OKH quite far from the front, and AGs about halfway between OKH and their Armies. Only Armies themselves may (and may not) have a possibility of being within 5 hexes of combat. Wow... I may have to really push my HQs closer to the front. At least make sure Army HQs are within 5 hexes.
The Guru
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by The Guru »

Wow... I may have to really push my HQs closer to the front. At least make sure Army HQs are within 5 hexes.

that's if it is confirmed...
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Gunnulf
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by Gunnulf »

The advantage of HQs closer to the front is not just SU commitment - also the closer army and army group/front HQ are to the combat has a positive effect on passing secondary and tertiary test rolls if corps tests fail. I can't recall without checking the manual the exact distance that is optimum for that but I think the section is called 'command range modifier'. You don't need to go putting Army Group North & OKH right on the front line, but certainly shouldnt be sat back in Poland either :). But it can be worth making sure an Army Group HQ is near the right place in the line to influence as many critical attacks its subordinate units are going to be making.
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Gunnulf
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by Gunnulf »

ORIGINAL: The Guru
Wow... I may have to really push my HQs closer to the front. At least make sure Army HQs are within 5 hexes.

that's if it is confirmed...

Seeing is believing, try it out
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gargoil
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by gargoil »

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

The advantage of HQs closer to the front is not just SU commitment - also the closer army and army group/front HQ are to the combat has a positive effect on passing secondary and tertiary test rolls if corps tests fail. I can't recall without checking the manual the exact distance that is optimum for that but I think the section is called 'command range modifier'. You don't need to go putting Army Group North & OKH right on the front line, but certainly shouldnt be sat back in Poland either :). But it can be worth making sure an Army Group HQ is near the right place in the line to influence as many critical attacks its subordinate units are going to be making.

Woh, Nellie... On each subordinate there the name of its direct HQ, its distance and its max range. Format is this:

HQ NAME (Distance/Max Range) example: VI Corp (3/5), or 19th Army (12/15)...

Corps 5 range
Armies 15 range
Army Groups 45 range
Hi Command 90 range

(substitute Soviet Command Structure, works the same)

As far as I know, these are the only ranges from and to HQs/Units that matter for Command - unless I am totally delusional?
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loki100
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by loki100 »

well the manual states:
A command range modifier is applied to leader rating checks conducted by leaders in headquarters units to which the unit involved is not directly attached, i.e. HQ units higher up the chain of command. Naval and morale leader rating checks are exempt from the command range modifier.

which does imply that the numbers you have cited are the maxima but closer clustering makes the actual chance higher, viz:
For example, if the leader of an Army Group HQ unit that was 15 hexes away from a unit was conducting an initiative check, 5 (15/3) would be added to the random number value.

so here its dice + 5 against the commander rating, if the HQ was 9 hexes it would be dice + 3?
gargoil
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by gargoil »

ORIGINAL: loki100

well the manual states:
A command range modifier is applied to leader rating checks conducted by leaders in headquarters units to which the unit involved is not directly attached, i.e. HQ units higher up the chain of command. Naval and morale leader rating checks are exempt from the command range modifier.

which does imply that the numbers you have cited are the maxima but closer clustering makes the actual chance higher, viz:
For example, if the leader of an Army Group HQ unit that was 15 hexes away from a unit was conducting an initiative check, 5 (15/3) would be added to the random number value.

so here its dice + 5 against the commander rating, if the HQ was 9 hexes it would be dice + 3?

Geez, if what you found is really saying that there is a difference in the modifier, not just based on if the HQs are in range, but how "much" of that range is under the max, then that AGAIN changes what methods I use to control my organization. In effect, I would want to move higher level HQs closer front, and not only that, but specifically move them closest to where I need to ensure the best chance of the Command Modifier coming up successful. This may be were I need full movement, or were I need reserves to commit, etc.

So no longer just be sure all subordinates are "within" range, but make sure to "lean" the HQ toward situations that are currently in crucial command control areas. I must admit, it is another layer of sophisticated gameplay that I was unaware of.

Can anyone confirm that what Loki's interpretation of what he found within the rules is correct?
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Gunnulf
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by Gunnulf »

I don't think its a case of interpretation - the manual is pretty clearly saying that yes. Always worth a re-read. Commanders should be in a position where they can best influence the critical battles, in command and SU commitment, while ideally being able to stay in range of other sectors of the front that are less critical too.
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morvael
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by morvael »

A little bit off topic, but once you move your HQs closer to the front lines, leaders start to die in droves.
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jack54
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RE: SU's in superior HQs

Post by jack54 »

Here is a link to a nice discussion on the SU topic ... the consensus seems to be that HQ SU's will only aid units in combat that are attached to that HQ.[&:]

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2658528&mpage=1&key=support%2Cunits?

From the manual..

15.4. Support Units in Combat

Support units attached to headquarters units must pass a series of checks in order to be committed to a battle. Headquarters units can only commit support units to attached combat units. The HQ unit must be within five hexes of attached combat units and be able to trace an indeterminate path of friendly hexes, which can be in EZOC, to those same combat units in order to commit support units during combat.
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