Recommend me operational wargame

[wodin]

No games come with a printed manual as far as I know..you have to print it yourself.

I was looking a your questions over at TOAW3..though what your looking for sounds amazing as far as I'm aware no games do what your after..like telling Stukas to target a certain unit with a counter. It's like you want a low unit density operational scale game (Operational by their very nature will have abstractions) but with detail within it to micromanage what happens within the counters on map. Great idea..I'd buy it, just don't think it exists.

Decisive Campaigns have the leader aspect you after played through with cards. The cards really add a sense of commanders and have impact on strategy. Seriously it fulfills more than any other game what your looking for.

As for manuals..no manual will really teach you a game..some a important to get the basics..but trail and error is how you truly learn..the best way I find is reading AAR's...read a load of AAR's then work out if it's the game for you.

[Catch21]

Per your request at tm.asp?m=3285611&mpage=1&key=&#3285762 to post here (Post 6 & 7- TOAW Forum) and with only what I know:

...If I were looking again I'd buy one of the Command Ops series: Highway to the Reich/Battles from the Bulge. There's a demo available. It's made by a really useful Australian outfit- seems to me in terms of experience, thought, skill and most importantly relative to TOAW these days, ongoing development- Panther Games of 'Trial of Strength' fame (for those with longer memories), which I remember fondly as something of a quantum leap in EF board wargames. Command Ops seems similar in that regard (I just wish I had more time to review it further- I keep putting it on the long finger). Maybe someone has played both and could chime in here with an opinion.

Whatever you decide, I wish you well.

[Kuokkanen]

Games discussed in here this far:

War in the East & expansion
Expensive monster game with few small scale scenarios I'm looking for. Too few, no sale.

Decisive Campaigns
Game action cards provide special attacks and other actions. Major turn off for me.

John Tiller's Campaign Serie
Tactical scale combat, not operational. No deal.

Unity of Command
Looks much like Panzer Corps and predecessors (Battle Isle and Panzer General series). Nope!

Command Ops
No hexes, no sale.

The Operational Art of War, Volume III
I have understood that manual lacks details which has led new players ask things around the forums, like what some numbers and colours mean. But great variety of different theaters, wars, scales, and presence of my home nation (Finland) are strong selling points. Bought & downloaded, now to install the game and RTFM!

[wodin]

John Tillers aren't tactical..they are operational. Or you could push it and say Grand tactical I suppose, but really it's operational. JT Squad Battles is tactical.

Far as I'm aware DC cards don't give special attacks..you might get a bonus though a command card but no special attacks. Your dismissing the whole thing because of preconceived ideas.

I found TOAW3 combat and turn system convoluted to be honest. However it was probably the best choice for you.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: wodin

John Tillers aren't tactical..they are operational.

Really?

[HappyHedonist]

Really.

[wodin]

Didn't know you where talking about that series..which is very old indeed..thought you where talking about his current games. Totally forgot about the series here..which isn't what comes to mind when people mention his games these days.

Thanks for pointing him the way HappyH.

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

ORIGINAL: wodin

John Tillers aren't tactical..they are operational.

Really?

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: wodin
I found TOAW3 combat and turn system convoluted to be honest.

Wodin,

Not really convoluted. You just have to keep in mind that you are dealing with time. Many people do seem confused about the TOAW turn system and there have been some really strange posts on non-TOAW forums but it is not that difficult to understand.

Best wishes,
Steve

[wodin]

Was a very very long time ago i tried it out...just got abit confused..if the scale was my thing though I'd have stuck with it definitely.

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

The Operational Art of War, Volume III
I have understood that manual lacks details which has led new players ask things around the forums, like what some numbers and colours mean. But great variety of different theaters, wars, scales, and presence of my home nation (Finland) are strong selling points. Bought & downloaded, now to install the game and RTFM!

And read the What's New documentation. It is very important and details all the changes (and there are many) since the manual was created. Do not bother with the standard rules at all - they are not any kind of introduction to the advanced rules and the advanced rules are where all the fun is. Do not forget that the forum may be a little quiet at the moment but everyone checks in regularly and you will always get answers to questions you have about the game. It is quiet but it is not abandoned.

I would also add that it is probably best to get used to the scenario editor as soon as possible.

Best wishes,
Steve

[shunwick]

ORIGINAL: wodin
Was a very very long time ago i tried it out...just got abit confused..if the scale was my thing though I'd have stuck with it definitely.

Wodin,

You might like to have a look at it again.

The PO Assist function (new with the 3.4 patch) allows a player to select a formation while leaving all the others controlled by the PO. With something like Europa 1947 (one of the monsters - roughly 2000 units per side) instead of controlling all 2000 units ,you could elect to command say the UK 7th Corps (about 7 or eight units) and leave everything else to the AI. Or you could choose to play all the French forces, or the American forces etc.

Very interesting development. Genuine role-playing while the rest of the war goes on around you. It is only available as a single player option at the moment and it is not quite yet the full deal but I have high hopes that it will be expanded upon in the next patch.

The relative quiteness of the TOAW forum is partly due to the long wait for the almost mythical 3.5 patch.

Best wishes,
Steve

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: shunwick

The PO Assist function (new with the 3.4 patch) allows a player to select a formation while leaving all the others controlled by the PO. With something like Europa 1947 (one of the monsters - roughly 2000 units per side) instead of controlling all 2000 units ,you could elect to command say the UK 7th Corps (about 7 or eight units) and leave everything else to the AI. Or you could choose to play all the French forces, or the American forces etc.

Wunderbar!

[Kuokkanen]

Didn't know about the other series. So are those two different games with same name? So confusing...

ORIGINAL: wodin

Didn't know you where talking about that series..which is very old indeed..thought you where talking about his current games. Totally forgot about the series here..which isn't what comes to mind when people mention his games these days.

Thanks for pointing him the way HappyH.

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

ORIGINAL: wodin

John Tillers aren't tactical..they are operational.

Really?

[wodin]

Two different games with different names..Here it's a series at platoon called the John Tillers campaigns series..the other games are Panzer campaigns. Then you also have squad Battles at squad level..and some air war titles.

Then you have ACW and Napoleonic.

Panzer Campaigns is the biggest series most recent one was Moscow '42. Operational series at coy upto regiment scale.

[Wolfe1759]

If only Tiller would upgrade the UI / Graphics, particularly the UI to the quality of WitE or Decisive Campaigns or to be honest anything released in the last 5 years I'd be buying them. As they are, although as a bit of a Grog I know I shouldn't care about how pretty things look, Tiller's games are a turn off but good Grog that I am could live with this if the UI was (significantly) more user friendly. For me every "new" Tiller release is flogging a dead horse.

[Catch21]

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen
Command Ops
No hexes, no sale.

It works on a square grid system, which you can turn on or off. I'm no expert- someone else may confirm this- but combat/movement works point to point within the grid system, so in that respect perhaps more accurate than a center-hex to center-hex system, and arguably an improvement at the scale it seems to work best for (platoon, company, battalion, regiment). Personally I think it's pretty neat, and I've played TOAW extensively.

TOAW IMO is best at battalion-division level.

That's 2 demos mentioned- one for each of these- you could try. Along with documentation, even YouTube tutorials. The TOAW demo is dated- like the first edition from the late 20th Century- but enough I think to give you a good flavor of the game with Korea 1951 as the included scenario. There may be other games on your short list with demos (though I don't think so).

[Kuokkanen]

I have already bought and installed TOAW3, so we can close this discussion. Though after buying TOAW3 I noticed here at least one game overlooked earlier that I could have possibly considered: Panzer Campaigns. And why nobody mentioned Advanced Tactics Gold?

[Konrad_Novak]

Indeed, why haven't anyone mentioned ATG? It's a beautiful game, which has just enough historical realism to be a great operational-strategic wargame. And, as I can see, it just got updated. Well, I'll describe pros and cons of the ATG - maybe it will help other readers to decide. I will base my post on the assumption that you will play random maps, but there are a lot of user-made content out there.

PROs:
1. The heart of the ATG is its Random Map Generator. IMHO, it provides for better "historically correct experience" - when playing random maps, player always faces the same challenges that troubled military and civilian commanders - where is the enemy, what are his plans, how to counter them and how to emerge victorious?

I don't think that ANY wargame with scenarios based on historical events can present the same level of Friction and Fog of War. Even in such gems as WITE both players know what are their respective opponents' capabilities and possible operational plans. After two or three games, such historical wargames become a bit stale for my taste.

2. Ability to customize your command hierarchy. You create your forces from the scratch - you'll have to create desired amount of units, formation and staffs. Want a divisional structure? Go for it! Prefer a brigade structure - it's your call. Need something indescribably bizarre? No problem.

The staffs of all levels are not just for show. They enhance combat attributes of their subordinates and distribute supplies and reinforcements.

3. Ability to fully customize your armed forced. As I mentioned earlier, in the beginning you have nothing and can create anything. But you have to divide your production efforts between "Political Points" (to create formations and research new unit types and upgrade them), "Supplies" (to, you know, supply existing units) and production of units themselves. I won't go deeper in the production system, but there's some complexity there.

The thing that I like about "create-an-army" is that you have to walk in the shoes of Interwar era (between WWI & WWII) politicians. What army to create? Quick motorized\mechanized but small army? Large infantry army? Emphasize air power or develop some AA guns (its cheaper) and produce some tanks instead? Motorize your units or produce a lot of horses and go for a larger army instead? There are quite a few dilemmas.

4. Detailed yet simple supply system. The soldiers march on their stomachs and it's evident in ATG. You have to manage limited resources ("Raw materials" to produce any tech-based unites such as tanks and "Oil" to keep tanks running). Enemy captured your oil resources? Sorry, but now you have to divert some industrial capacity to synthesize it. Not enough raw materials? No artillery\tanks\bombers today for you.

AFAIK, the resources are distributed between players evenly, so you won't have no oil while your opponent will wallow in it.

Cons:
1. UI. ATG has a standard UI for counter-fest wargames which is clearly not enough for this masterpiece.

A. You have to create every @#$%$# unit manually. In larger maps you'll have several hundreds of units and will have to create each of them from scratch. There are no templates to facilitate uniformity.

B. You have to reinforce each and every unit manually. If your 200 units suffered minor losses during opponent's turn, you'll have to distribute reinforcements manually to each of them. It gets REALLY tedious on largest maps. Sadly, conceptually, ATG shines on the same largest maps.

C. (my personal). There is no facilitation for moving an insane amount of counters late in the game. You'll have to move each counter manually every turn of the game. Well, I have the same issue with other counter-fests, so if you're ok with thousands click per turn - disregard this subsection.

2. ATG is historically abstract. It means no tens of mods of BF109 and TIII for you. All tanks, planes, mortars etc. simply upgrade to more powerful modifications.

3. You'll have to manage production and supply. Hence, it is not strictly "operational", but an "operational-strategic" wargame. If you won't take your industrial and technological capacity into account when you're planning your offensive you will fail.

In addition, there's a Decisive Campaigns series, which uses the ATG engine, with addition of some action cards. As mentioned before, it's nothing out-of-character. For example, each turn officers receive an action card that "Increases entrenchment for a particular unit for 33%". Something like that.

I think it's actually a good representation of the role of distinguished officers in military. Every turn you'll have to prioritize - which units need your (i.e. your officers') attention, and which will be ok on their own.

P.S. And, I think, Command Ops should me mentioned once more. I remember when I first saw it and was a bit confused: "What? A real-time wargame without hexes? What heresy is this?". But after some tinkering I fell in love with the game. Try the demo out. I seriously think that Command Ops should be the future of wargames.

[shunwick]

Konrad,

That is a very good overview of ATG. I have the original AT, can you tell me what changed between that and ATG?

Best wishes,
Steve

[wodin]

ATG sounds like it's a perfect engine for a sci fi wargame or something like WH4OK. Historical accuracy is no longer na issue..and you cna use your imagination to your hearts content..set it in a proper hard military sci fi setting..could be a winner.

Anyway hows the OP getting on with TOAW?