I have been reading this AAR- I just wanted to mention I really enjoy it, and you present it extremely well.
Keep up the good work. If you can keep cutting off Soviet units each turn, you might be another player to prove its not impossible as the German. You have the whole summer to do some damage- probably 15 ish clear turns or so.
Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
+ 1
IdahoNYer is very good player, with excellent command of strategy and may even obtain automatic victory. I would say that Scar is doomed, and will have to wait till summer of 1944 for any major counter offensive.
IdahoNYer is very good player, with excellent command of strategy and may even obtain automatic victory. I would say that Scar is doomed, and will have to wait till summer of 1944 for any major counter offensive.
Both the victor
and the vanquished are
but drops of dew,
but bolts of lightning -
thus should we view the world.
Ôuchi Yoshitaka
1507-1551
and the vanquished are
but drops of dew,
but bolts of lightning -
thus should we view the world.
Ôuchi Yoshitaka
1507-1551
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
1,2,3,4 pz armies all attacking
Its the only chance to possibly get the auto victory in '42. Of course the trade off is putting the Allies in the line.....even....the Italians. Gulp!
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
I have been reading this AAR- I just wanted to mention I really enjoy it, and you present it extremely well.
Keep up the good work. If you can keep cutting off Soviet units each turn, you might be another player to prove its not impossible as the German. You have the whole summer to do some damage- probably 15 ish clear turns or so.
Thanks AFV. A German can "win", at least a minor by end game in '45. I think alot of folks get frustrated and not gutting out a full game. Here, I'm trying to push hard for the auto victory - which truthfully, I think getting the 260 will be close, but just out of reach. Soviets are alot tougher in '42! AS you say, I still have some time.
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
IdahoNYer is very good player, with excellent command of strategy and may even obtain automatic victory. I would say that Scar is doomed, and will have to wait till summer of 1944 for any major counter offensive.
Thanks Tone. Scar and I have been going at PBEM games since we playtested HPS' Panzer Campaigns Smolensk 41 way, way back. I don't count him out just yet. If I can reach "The Tipping Point", which I think should be around when Soviet manpower hits less than 4.5 million, he'll be hard pressed to maintain a line with sufficient reserves. That's the key. I've got a bit furhter to go....
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Turn 54; Jun 25, 1942.........Clear
Summer offensive continues with moderate to good success!!
On the Moscow Front, 18th Army and 3rd Pz Armee still find the going tough. During the Soviet portion of last turn, XXXIX PzKps lost its bridghead over the Moscow-Volga Canal to a Soviet Counterattack, and Soviets also managed to relieve one of the two trapped 4xRifle Div pockets.
In this turn, the XXXIX PzKps managed to establish another bridghead. 18th Army liquidated the 4xRifle Divs that were not relieved, and eliminated a Soviet position at the Volga Res. Also 9th Army re-sealed the cordon in the southern 4xRifle Div Pocket and took a level 3 fort position SW of Moscow.
All of this was tough going, hard fought actions. While progress is made, it is slow, and the Soviets have re-established a level 3 fort line north of Moscow - not welcome news!
Still, eliminating one of the two Soviet pockets and some solid Soviet forts has greatly faciliated the German ability to mass for future operations north of Moscow - time to continue to push to isolate Moscow from the north!
Summer offensive continues with moderate to good success!!
On the Moscow Front, 18th Army and 3rd Pz Armee still find the going tough. During the Soviet portion of last turn, XXXIX PzKps lost its bridghead over the Moscow-Volga Canal to a Soviet Counterattack, and Soviets also managed to relieve one of the two trapped 4xRifle Div pockets.
In this turn, the XXXIX PzKps managed to establish another bridghead. 18th Army liquidated the 4xRifle Divs that were not relieved, and eliminated a Soviet position at the Volga Res. Also 9th Army re-sealed the cordon in the southern 4xRifle Div Pocket and took a level 3 fort position SW of Moscow.
All of this was tough going, hard fought actions. While progress is made, it is slow, and the Soviets have re-established a level 3 fort line north of Moscow - not welcome news!
Still, eliminating one of the two Soviet pockets and some solid Soviet forts has greatly faciliated the German ability to mass for future operations north of Moscow - time to continue to push to isolate Moscow from the north!
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
In the Tula area, things continue to get more and more interesting...
During the Soviet portion of the turn, the Germans defeated a small attack to free up the Kaluga Pocket. As expected, in the 4th Pz Armee area, the 6th Pz (still using Pz 35s!!) was isolated, but so was the SS Totenkopf! Not good.
During this turn, things worked out pretty well!
The Kaluga Pocket, less 3 remaining divisions, was liquidated yeilding 2xTk Corps and 15x Rifle Div surrendered. Nice!
With much of their respective infantry tied up reducing the Kaluga Pocket, 4th Army and 2nd Pz Armee's gains were limited, but effective. 4th Army assists 2nd Pz's XXIV PzKps in establishing a firm lodging on the north side of the Oka River, while 2nd Pz's XXXXVII PzKps bulls its way eastward barely 20 miles against massed Soviet Rifle divisions - which surprises me since I had just pocketed a good haul in and around Kaluga. Still, Soviets were pushed out of positions before they could adequately fortify.
South of Tula, 4th Pz and 6th Armies both focus on re-establishing the Orel Pocket. This is done at the expense of trying to penetrate the Soviet lines. This pockets another 18xRifle Divs under a tight cordon.
Focus ahead is still challenging:
- reinforce and expand the Oka River Bridgehead
- envelope Tula between 2nd and 4th Pz Armies.
- Reduce the Orel Pocket and drive eastwards to threaten Voronezh from the north.
Still lots of work to be done!
During the Soviet portion of the turn, the Germans defeated a small attack to free up the Kaluga Pocket. As expected, in the 4th Pz Armee area, the 6th Pz (still using Pz 35s!!) was isolated, but so was the SS Totenkopf! Not good.
During this turn, things worked out pretty well!
The Kaluga Pocket, less 3 remaining divisions, was liquidated yeilding 2xTk Corps and 15x Rifle Div surrendered. Nice!
With much of their respective infantry tied up reducing the Kaluga Pocket, 4th Army and 2nd Pz Armee's gains were limited, but effective. 4th Army assists 2nd Pz's XXIV PzKps in establishing a firm lodging on the north side of the Oka River, while 2nd Pz's XXXXVII PzKps bulls its way eastward barely 20 miles against massed Soviet Rifle divisions - which surprises me since I had just pocketed a good haul in and around Kaluga. Still, Soviets were pushed out of positions before they could adequately fortify.
South of Tula, 4th Pz and 6th Armies both focus on re-establishing the Orel Pocket. This is done at the expense of trying to penetrate the Soviet lines. This pockets another 18xRifle Divs under a tight cordon.
Focus ahead is still challenging:
- reinforce and expand the Oka River Bridgehead
- envelope Tula between 2nd and 4th Pz Armies.
- Reduce the Orel Pocket and drive eastwards to threaten Voronezh from the north.
Still lots of work to be done!
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- 420625AGC.jpg (465.59 KiB) Viewed 114 times
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
In AGS's area of operations, we catch a break.
Last turn, I decided to abort XXXXVIII Pzkps drive due to lack of progress - thought the hope of linking up with the remainder of 1st Pz Armee was rather remote.
The Soviets then decide to pull back to the Don River - but don't have a solid intermediate line established!
This allows XXXXVIII PzKps to penetrate the lines, and along with III and XIV PzKps renewed attacks, trap 9x Rifle divisions in a pocket just south of Bugachar - which was the original objective! Nice!
11th Army, to the south, manages after 2xholds, to estalbish a small bridgehead across the Don river just east of Rostov. I don't expect much of this, but it may keep the Soviets guessing as to my next move.
1st Pz Armee remains the main effort - and after eliminating the Boguchar Pocket will attempt to establish a bridgehead across the Don River - ultimately to strike north and envelope the Soviets east of Voronezh.
Still a long ways to go!
Last turn, I decided to abort XXXXVIII Pzkps drive due to lack of progress - thought the hope of linking up with the remainder of 1st Pz Armee was rather remote.
The Soviets then decide to pull back to the Don River - but don't have a solid intermediate line established!
This allows XXXXVIII PzKps to penetrate the lines, and along with III and XIV PzKps renewed attacks, trap 9x Rifle divisions in a pocket just south of Bugachar - which was the original objective! Nice!
11th Army, to the south, manages after 2xholds, to estalbish a small bridgehead across the Don river just east of Rostov. I don't expect much of this, but it may keep the Soviets guessing as to my next move.
1st Pz Armee remains the main effort - and after eliminating the Boguchar Pocket will attempt to establish a bridgehead across the Don River - ultimately to strike north and envelope the Soviets east of Voronezh.
Still a long ways to go!
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
-36 rif divs , nice job
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Turn 55; July 2, 1942.......Clear
Summer offensive is going into its second month, and so far, good progress has been made! Still, its been a tough fight, few - if any -easy victories similar to 1941.
North of Moscow, 3rd Pz Armee, supported by 18th and 9th Armies, finds going extremely tough - and defenses getting tougher. While eliminating the second small pocket - the time spent eliminating the pockets, and dug in Soviets has really marginalized the advance. This has allowed the Soviets time to create further level 3 forts - now, in some cases, manned by Rifle Corps.
18th Army has become increasingly stretched out protecting the northern flank of the attack towards Moscow. Three of four Korps have transitioned to the defense holding the flank. Only I Korps is currently attacking, and it was held in its one attack.
3rd Pz Armee's XXXIX PzKps was also stymied this turn - three attacks held trying to expand its bridgehead across the Moscow-Volga Canal. With Hitler pulling Das Reich home, its major striking power is down to a single Pz Div - the 12th - which is in badly need of rest.
The only positive news was the LVII PzKps taking a lvl 3 fortified Rifle Corps position - but it was unable to push into a weakly defended hex.
9th Army, faced with fortified level 3 Rifle Corps, has also been stretched out and finds massing for attacks challenging.
This was NOT a good turn here north of Moscow. The Germans are in need of rest - but a halt is out of the question. The Soviets simply dig in too fast to give them the chance to further improve their positions.
Summer offensive is going into its second month, and so far, good progress has been made! Still, its been a tough fight, few - if any -easy victories similar to 1941.
North of Moscow, 3rd Pz Armee, supported by 18th and 9th Armies, finds going extremely tough - and defenses getting tougher. While eliminating the second small pocket - the time spent eliminating the pockets, and dug in Soviets has really marginalized the advance. This has allowed the Soviets time to create further level 3 forts - now, in some cases, manned by Rifle Corps.
18th Army has become increasingly stretched out protecting the northern flank of the attack towards Moscow. Three of four Korps have transitioned to the defense holding the flank. Only I Korps is currently attacking, and it was held in its one attack.
3rd Pz Armee's XXXIX PzKps was also stymied this turn - three attacks held trying to expand its bridgehead across the Moscow-Volga Canal. With Hitler pulling Das Reich home, its major striking power is down to a single Pz Div - the 12th - which is in badly need of rest.
The only positive news was the LVII PzKps taking a lvl 3 fortified Rifle Corps position - but it was unable to push into a weakly defended hex.
9th Army, faced with fortified level 3 Rifle Corps, has also been stretched out and finds massing for attacks challenging.
This was NOT a good turn here north of Moscow. The Germans are in need of rest - but a halt is out of the question. The Soviets simply dig in too fast to give them the chance to further improve their positions.
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
In the Tula area south of Moscow, things still move forward at a relatively fast tempo.
Encirlced troops near Kaluga (3xRifle Div) and the Orel Pocket (18xRifle Div) were eliminated by infantry. This allowed the panzers to continue the attack, supported by available infantry.
4th Army shifted forces east, opening up a gap that XXXX PzKps further expanded just south of the Oka River. Into the narrow gap, XXIV PzKps exploited deep into the Soviet rear, turning north across the river near Kolomna, and establishing a bridgehead as well as cutting a vital rail link to the capital.
While its XXIV PzKps pushed NE to threaten Moscow, 2nd Pz Armee infantry and its XXXXVII PzKps worked to encirlce Soviet forces around Moscow from the north. Progress here is slow, but steady - and the PzKps bulls its way forward to link up with panzers driving up from the south.
4th Pz Armee's LVI PzKps and infantry tear open a 30 mile wide gap in the Soviet front south of Tula which XXXXI PzKps drives NE to link up with Guderian's panzers coming in from the north. The Tula Pocket is formed with 13xRifle Div and a Tank Corps trapped in the pocket. The Panzers opt to lock down the pocket instead of trying to push further east - which was unlikely in any case as the panzers are now well fatigued.
6th Army has pushed its XXXXVI PzKps north behind 4th Pz Armee's PzKps rather than trying to bull its way through growing Soviet defenses NW of Voronezh - which the Soviets clearly intend to protect.
Overall, a solid turn for the Germans in the Tula area - another sizeable Soviet force is encirlced according the the plan, and the Soviet defenses are blitzed before the Soviets can fortify the front - which is exactly what is happening north of Moscow.
Still far from breaking the Soviet army as a fighting force however. The momentum must be maintained so the Soviets can not catch their breath, regardless of fatigue and German losses.
Encirlced troops near Kaluga (3xRifle Div) and the Orel Pocket (18xRifle Div) were eliminated by infantry. This allowed the panzers to continue the attack, supported by available infantry.
4th Army shifted forces east, opening up a gap that XXXX PzKps further expanded just south of the Oka River. Into the narrow gap, XXIV PzKps exploited deep into the Soviet rear, turning north across the river near Kolomna, and establishing a bridgehead as well as cutting a vital rail link to the capital.
While its XXIV PzKps pushed NE to threaten Moscow, 2nd Pz Armee infantry and its XXXXVII PzKps worked to encirlce Soviet forces around Moscow from the north. Progress here is slow, but steady - and the PzKps bulls its way forward to link up with panzers driving up from the south.
4th Pz Armee's LVI PzKps and infantry tear open a 30 mile wide gap in the Soviet front south of Tula which XXXXI PzKps drives NE to link up with Guderian's panzers coming in from the north. The Tula Pocket is formed with 13xRifle Div and a Tank Corps trapped in the pocket. The Panzers opt to lock down the pocket instead of trying to push further east - which was unlikely in any case as the panzers are now well fatigued.
6th Army has pushed its XXXXVI PzKps north behind 4th Pz Armee's PzKps rather than trying to bull its way through growing Soviet defenses NW of Voronezh - which the Soviets clearly intend to protect.
Overall, a solid turn for the Germans in the Tula area - another sizeable Soviet force is encirlced according the the plan, and the Soviet defenses are blitzed before the Soviets can fortify the front - which is exactly what is happening north of Moscow.
Still far from breaking the Soviet army as a fighting force however. The momentum must be maintained so the Soviets can not catch their breath, regardless of fatigue and German losses.
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- 420702AGC.jpg (529.69 KiB) Viewed 114 times
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
AGS focuses on eliminating the Boguchar Pockeet, yeilding 9xRifle Div. 1st Pz Armee does clear Boguchar itself and gain a small bridgehead across the Don River. All good news.
However, AGS is over stretched. Four Axis Ally armies are now in the line which is dangerous, and any further advance will just excaserbate the situation. But that is exactly what will need to happen.
Rum 4th Army continues to advance as the Soviets pull back, but the Soviets are treating this area as an economy of force - massing forces to counterattck 1st Pz Armee.
As AGC is still engaged in heavy fighting near Tula - the decision to commit 4th Pz Armee south toward Voronezh has not been made yet. Until that decision is made, it is pointless for 1st Pz Armee to establish a large bridgehead north of the Don River. The three PzKps are badly in need of some rest in any case, and I may pull at least one PzKps out to rest, while the others clear through encirlement the Soviets south of the Don River. This could also keep the Soviets guessing that the German goal is more toward Stalingrad than north of the Don river to link up with Armee Group Center.
South of the screen shot, 11th Army expands its bridghead across the lower Don by a hex. Again - the objective hear is to tie down Soviets into thinking that we're driving more southerly than going north...Once 1st Pz Armee commits north, 11th Army will be needed to hold an extending flank and offensive operations south of the Don will be suspended.
However, AGS is over stretched. Four Axis Ally armies are now in the line which is dangerous, and any further advance will just excaserbate the situation. But that is exactly what will need to happen.
Rum 4th Army continues to advance as the Soviets pull back, but the Soviets are treating this area as an economy of force - massing forces to counterattck 1st Pz Armee.
As AGC is still engaged in heavy fighting near Tula - the decision to commit 4th Pz Armee south toward Voronezh has not been made yet. Until that decision is made, it is pointless for 1st Pz Armee to establish a large bridgehead north of the Don River. The three PzKps are badly in need of some rest in any case, and I may pull at least one PzKps out to rest, while the others clear through encirlement the Soviets south of the Don River. This could also keep the Soviets guessing that the German goal is more toward Stalingrad than north of the Don river to link up with Armee Group Center.
South of the screen shot, 11th Army expands its bridghead across the lower Don by a hex. Again - the objective hear is to tie down Soviets into thinking that we're driving more southerly than going north...Once 1st Pz Armee commits north, 11th Army will be needed to hold an extending flank and offensive operations south of the Don will be suspended.
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- 420702AGS.jpg (537.49 KiB) Viewed 114 times
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
As its the first turn of the month, time for the admin info charts....
Destroyed units show the results of the Summer Offenive - pockets near Kaluga, Orel, and Boguchar yeild 50+ Rifle Divs and the first tank corps to be encircled.
A very good start to the offensive. The challenge will be to keep this tempo up in Jul and Aug.
Destroyed units show the results of the Summer Offenive - pockets near Kaluga, Orel, and Boguchar yeild 50+ Rifle Divs and the first tank corps to be encircled.
A very good start to the offensive. The challenge will be to keep this tempo up in Jul and Aug.
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- 420702Destroyed.jpg (203.04 KiB) Viewed 114 times
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
The losses screen shot is most interesting.
1.2 Million Soviet losses are the most of any month since the start of the campaign. However, (there is always seeming a however) the German losses are the second highest of any month (Dec) and the highest in number killed and panzers lost of any month.
The bottom line? Inflicting these heavy Soviet losses are coming with a large price tag. Soviet defenses have been very robust and German losses corresponding heavy.
There is no choice here - to break the Soviet Army, the Germans must continue to push hard at all costs. It is the only chance for ultimate victory here in 1942 - or ever.
1.2 Million Soviet losses are the most of any month since the start of the campaign. However, (there is always seeming a however) the German losses are the second highest of any month (Dec) and the highest in number killed and panzers lost of any month.
The bottom line? Inflicting these heavy Soviet losses are coming with a large price tag. Soviet defenses have been very robust and German losses corresponding heavy.
There is no choice here - to break the Soviet Army, the Germans must continue to push hard at all costs. It is the only chance for ultimate victory here in 1942 - or ever.
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- 420702Losses.jpg (61.24 KiB) Viewed 114 times
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Forces available.
Pretty safe to say that the Germans have already reached their high water mark on strength last month, coming in just under the 4 million mark. The casualties will likely to outpace replacements and reinforcements for the rest of the summer.
The Soviet strength did drop almost half a million men which is a most positive statistic. Still another 700,000 reduction is estimated to break the back of the Soviet army. Not impossible, and off to a good start with the Tula Pocket.
Still a very long road ahead.
Pretty safe to say that the Germans have already reached their high water mark on strength last month, coming in just under the 4 million mark. The casualties will likely to outpace replacements and reinforcements for the rest of the summer.
The Soviet strength did drop almost half a million men which is a most positive statistic. Still another 700,000 reduction is estimated to break the back of the Soviet army. Not impossible, and off to a good start with the Tula Pocket.
Still a very long road ahead.
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- 420702Forces.jpg (225.95 KiB) Viewed 114 times
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
Lastly, the state of the Panzerwaffe.
The panzers suffered fairly heavy losses - especially in AGC fighting. Many divisions coming in under 100 panzers, and fatigue levels severe across the board for the most part.
While the panzers probably need a rest overall to recover some strength and rest for fatigue recovery, that is probably just not going to happen. I may be able to rest a division or so here and there, but the offensive just needs to cointine regardless.
The panzers suffered fairly heavy losses - especially in AGC fighting. Many divisions coming in under 100 panzers, and fatigue levels severe across the board for the most part.
While the panzers probably need a rest overall to recover some strength and rest for fatigue recovery, that is probably just not going to happen. I may be able to rest a division or so here and there, but the offensive just needs to cointine regardless.
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RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
that set of overview reports is a great insight into the cost of your offensive
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
What a thriller! The terrain north of Moscow is pretty poor for offensives, for sure, but Scar must have realized that he will have to stop that pincer to save Moscow. Unfortunately for him the southern pincer seems now to be a much bigger threat.
Scar is really putting up a good fight in key areas given his truly short OOB numbers. Wehrmacht is only 20% weaker, not counting the minors. 3.9M German soldiers, wow, that's about 700k more than in the books. Given that, Scar must know you really well -- he is probably robbing Peter to pay Paul, or what was that saying? He must be paper thin along long stretches of the front? How does the situation further north of Moscow look like?
Good speed for your 3rd PzA!
Scar is really putting up a good fight in key areas given his truly short OOB numbers. Wehrmacht is only 20% weaker, not counting the minors. 3.9M German soldiers, wow, that's about 700k more than in the books. Given that, Scar must know you really well -- he is probably robbing Peter to pay Paul, or what was that saying? He must be paper thin along long stretches of the front? How does the situation further north of Moscow look like?
Good speed for your 3rd PzA!
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smokindave34
- Posts: 881
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:56 am
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
+1
Excellent AAR - very exciting. I think you are correct in your approach to keep pushing hard. If you give Scar time to dig in the poor terrain around Moscow it will be especially difficult to force him out. Although your panzers are thin I suspect Scar is really feeling the heat now - keep the pressure on him. Good Luck!
Excellent AAR - very exciting. I think you are correct in your approach to keep pushing hard. If you give Scar time to dig in the poor terrain around Moscow it will be especially difficult to force him out. Although your panzers are thin I suspect Scar is really feeling the heat now - keep the pressure on him. Good Luck!
RE: Drang Nach Osten - Revisited
love this aar.
realy nice work with agc and tula area. picking him apart piece by piece.
hows the AGN/leningrad area look like? fins holding the line and dont attacking? might be worthwile to to press him on all fronts now....
i was trying to find the axis minors mobile divisions, are the hungarian and rumanian armoured divisions used ?
realy nice work with agc and tula area. picking him apart piece by piece.
hows the AGN/leningrad area look like? fins holding the line and dont attacking? might be worthwile to to press him on all fronts now....
i was trying to find the axis minors mobile divisions, are the hungarian and rumanian armoured divisions used ?