mg42 lethality

[deshrex]

I have some early impressions. Playing the Yank in multiplayer, I'm finding the degree of mg42 lethality is pretty high. A typical firefight will start with an opening exchange of fire between enemy squads, with usually pretty low M1 and Tommy lethality, though the BAR can get some hits in. Once the mg42 of the enemy squad is sighted on the Yank squad, the Yanks start dropping pretty fast, and if the squad loses a couple of guys, then low Yank morale may very well kick in, and the other soldiers can crack or lose their combat effectiveness, and so quite rapidly a Yank squad is finished. Even when guys have hit the dirt in ambush mode in a building, they still get chopped up.

In my latest battle, the German player took out maybe half a dozen of my (unsupported - no tanks) squads through mg42 fire alone. He didn't need to fire a single cannon shot.

Any thoughts from other players here? I have seen the above sequence of events a good dozen times now in multiplayer play.

My standard of reference here would be the Gold Juno Sword mod, which I consider to be one of the best CC5 games. I think there the mg42 had less lethality, and so the German gunner would have to spend more bullets to hit a target, which would make the German player think twice about burning through his ammunition.

[Cathartes]

Data-wise, the main difference is the rate of fire and rounds in one burst: the MG42 is blazing fast and spits out 8 rounds per burst vs just 3 for the BAR. As far as range and penetration in the data, both guns are identical when it comes to the damage it can do to a soldier sprite. The MG42 just has 8 rolls of the die per burst vs just 3 for the BAR.

The differences between CC5 (and its mods) and PitF are substantial. Comparing results between these platforms is increasingly a confusing endeavor.

[Overkenshin]

I agree the MG42 is super-awesome/super terrible in this game, depending on which side of the barrel you are!

I'd day this strength is offset to a degree by German squads being generally smaller. At a closer range I think the balance of squad firepower is more even, where Tommy can bring all his guns to bear more effectively.

[Misconduct]

The Mg42 was a terrifying weapon all round, consider the idea of 8 rounds flying at you vs 3 - plus the fact Mg42s were belt fed, where BAR was only a Clip - the MG42 should win easily in a fire fight on equal terms.

Given the standard german unit is extremely small - i think its a trade off for size, you dont need 12 men for what 4 can do with an Mg42.

[slbm]

I think the problem with MG42s is not so much their lethality, but their abundance. I haven't had time to consult real-life unit structures, but it seems highly unlikely that every German infantry squad had one.

And what is certainly ultra-uneralistic is that every depleated squad manages to retain its MG42. Not lost, not destroyed, not damaged, always there. May be just two guys, but one always has an MG42. Even if it provides for a better balance somehow, I find it totally unrealistic, as every single German infantry position turns into an MG nest, much harder to attack.

In fact, while the Germans had excellent MGs their infantry firepower suffered somewhat from using bolt-action rifles. In the game however you can't really encounter non-MG German infantry, so the American advantage of having Garands is totally removed.

[Kanov]

ORIGINAL: slbm

In fact, while the Germans had excellent MGs their infantry firepower suffered somewhat from using bolt-action rifles. In the game however you can't really encounter non-MG German infantry, so the American advantage of having Garands is totally removed.

I remember something like that was one of the selling points of CC1 and may have been on the manual, something like a footnote saying that on a 1v1, rifle team vs rifle team, germans have more men per squad but americans have the garand and in a firefight the american team will always prevail because the german squad will undoubtedly get pinned down and unable to shoot back.

[SteveMcClaire]

There are German rifle teams without MGs, but due to German units in Panthers in the Fog, they are the minority. German Panzergrenadiers were equipped with 2 x MG per squad, so they had a lot of firepower. German regular infantry, like the KG Schmidt (of the 275.ID) or the 'what if' units of the 708.ID, have several 'rifle only' infantry teams per platoon.

[slbm]

ORIGINAL: Steve McClaire

German Panzergrenadiers were equipped with 2 x MG per squad, so they had a lot of firepower.

Yes, by TO&E they might have been supposed to. But the units in the game are not coming fresh from being resupplied in Germany. Many platoons are quite depleted, especially as the campaign progresses. Yet even two-person teams seem to always be able to retain their MG42. I find this quite unrealistic.

[nietsche]

Rounds per clip are not quite right in the weapons file for the light MG 42. Clip weight is supposed to be 6 pounds compared to 15 pounds for the heavy 42 machine gun. Heavy 42 has 250 rounds per clip so a setting of 100 for the light 42 would be more like what it should be. I have changed this and tested it and it seems about right to me at 100 rounds per clip. That is also the same setting as for the American light machine gun compared to the heavy. I think it was an error in the files.

To make sure everything is balanced correctly also edit the AP Crewed setting for leMG42 in the soldiers file from 6 to 10 so that they end up carrying about the right amount of ammunition and get fatigued ... not sure how historically accurate this is but I am sure someone else here will know. It seems to balance things out a bit because leMG 42 crews were performing more like a heavy MG.

[TIK]

In my experience, the weapon is just too accurate. Seems to mow down anything, regardless of cover, distance etc.

I'm fine with it's suppression capabilities. Just wish it wasn't so accurate.

[asfhgwt]

Can't any settings modify the MG42?

[SteveMcClaire]

The weapon accuracy values can be changed in the game data files, if you prefer to have less accurate weapons. See the data work book here: tm.asp?m=3244271

Steve

[STIENER]

steves right " German Panzergrenadiers / rifle squads were equipped with 2 x MG per squad, so they had a lot of firepower." the other troopers in the rifle squad were just there to carry ammo for the MG 42 and to protect the gun crew.

that being said...why not listen to us steve and tone the mg 42 down a bit and make the game or the next CC game a wee bit more playible???
playability is a factor.

there is a group of us hard core CC players that talk and try to improve, but it seems matrix doesnt listen well.

[Misconduct]

ORIGINAL: STIENER

that being said...why not listen to us steve and tone the mg 42 down a bit and make the game or the next CC game a wee bit more playible???
playability is a factor.

So why not just turn close combat into an arcade game then? One of the keys for the Germans is having the heavy tanks and MG42s, however there are such limited replacements vs the allies.