Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

March 2, 1942

Recon By Fire

Interesting day.

1) My old friend Johnson Island. With the dust from NEUMAN settled, the Allies decide to take the next step. Detection of 7/9 yesterday showed about 25 Zeroes present, no bombers, and importantly, no search planes. Also seen was a DD/DD/TB TF which I hoped was really the DD/mine craft TF seen to the west two days ago, now arrived at Johnson to evac the garrison. Two days ago I sent a surface TF of cruisers and destroyers on Bombardment with an aggressive CO, to catch the surface TF at best, and hit the air field at worst.

The surface TF arrives and finds no evac TF, but does find two I-boats, -18 and -22. ASW attacks damage the latter. My best guess is they are returning from CONUS patrols and are there to suck out available fuel as they fall back to the sub base at Kwajalein. No sub tender is seen any longer, and the port is far too small to supply torpedoes natively.

The bombardment does find Zeroes alone. The base damage adds to the deterioration of Johnson. As well, I am 50/50 that IJN subs saw the UNDERDOG TFs leaving San Diego. If this raid makes Japan think Johnson is the target so much the better.

Night Naval bombardment of Johnston Island at 164,112

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 22 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
CA Chester
CL Concord
CL Raleigh
DD Helm
DD Blue

Japanese ground losses:
128 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 28 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled

Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 23
Port hits 10
Port supply hits 2

2) Strong bombing attacks resume at Singers, with a lot of AF damage and a lot of lost and damaged IJA planes. The engineers there can handle about 20 runway hits a day and still get in some fort building; I don't think forts are on the menu today. Mary and Ann raids on the port also occur. Two very small xAPs unloading supply are hit and sunk. At least one I believe was retiring at sea when hit, so some supply got in. The Fast Transport guys are also delivering almost 1000/day. One APD has 18 system damage from hard use though, and the others are also limping.

From the past bombing patterns I think a ground assault on Singers will come within two days.

3) In Burma there are four separate Allied attacks on the large stack west of Tuang Gyi and south of Magwe. Escorted Chinese bombers, and AVG P-40 and H81-A3 strafing runs, do some damage and cost a few Allied planes. This stack now has a SW movement dot. It reads on different days as 9-11 LCUs. The sole Chinese corps on the road south of it in a block is ordered to move NW into the jungle, up against the river. Japan will reacquire supply access as it passes, but if he wants to leave the Magwe vicinity I won't try to stop him. I expect once Singers is dealt with far bigger stacks will come again. Magwe has petroleum Rangoon needs.

The Chinese army continues to flow into Burma unabated. Now they are strat moving directly from Lashio to Myitkyina, where they shift to Move and jump across the jungle gap to Kohima, then by road to Dimapur, back to Strat mode, and a railroad journey into India to relieve Indian Army heavy garrison forces to themsleves move down to Burma, especially the coast between Akyab and Chittagong. By the beginning of 1943 the Allies expect Chinese troops to have assumed at least half of the India garrison load, releasing mechanized forces for offense.

4) Banshees due to withdraw on 3/15 strike the AF at Johore Bharu, but do no damage. The Allies are trying to rotate some AF strikes in the general region around Singers in order to pull CAP away from escort duty at Palembang. B-17 strikes on Singkawang ordered for this purpose do not launch due to weather. Between these efforts and the escorted ground attacks in Burma I hope to stretch the IJA fighter force as much as I can right now. Salted in will be Oil attacks to keep him honest.

5) Very heavy Betty attacks occur again on the air field at Bataan. I'm not sure why he has not shifted to troop bombing to soften up for the assault. There is no supply there to destroy and the AF has 100% runway damage already, and no planes.

6) Filipino shock atack at Cagayan goes very well. Yesterday Alfred reccoed combining the defenders' fragments before attacking, but I had sent the turn back already. Something about this stirred a memory though. Tracker tells me I had noticed this situation about ten days ago. A single frag of the 101st was in Zamboanga. I ordered it to march to Cagayan, but it is far away yet. Regardless, the Shock attack did a lot of damage and forced the Japanese to retreat in disarray to central Mindanao. The gamble of giving away the Forts paid off here. Japan repeats the mistake seen a couple of times in China of underestimating how hard poorly-supplied but numerous troops can fight--once. Also, Japan does not seem to be using a lot of HQ support in its offensive. HQs can make a great deal of difference when assaulting urban or semi-urban bases.

Ground combat at Cagayan (79,89)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 8546 troops, 68 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 381

Defending force 5532 troops, 44 guns, 17 vehicles, Assault Value = 221

Allied adjusted assault: 714

Japanese adjusted defense: 131

Allied assault odds: 5 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), fatigue(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
2111 casualties reported
Squads: 60 destroyed, 63 disabled
Non Combat: 42 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 13 (5 destroyed, 8 disabled)
Vehicles lost 6 (2 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Units retreated 2


Allied ground losses:
621 casualties reported
Squads: 27 destroyed, 54 disabled
Non Combat: 18 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 8 (6 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
3rd/101st PA Battalion
1st /101st PA Battalion
3rd PA Constabulary Regiment
102nd PA Infantry Regiment
103rd PA Infantry Regiment
102nd PA Infantry Division
III Philippine Corps
Cagayan USAAF Base Force
2nd/101st PA Battalion

Defending units:
146th Infantry Regiment
82nd Naval Guard Unit
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: MateDow

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

9) After much thought and visualization of buyer's remorse, I let Lex and Saratoga go into upgrade cycle at San Diego. The UNDERDOG twin carriers should be enough by themselves, Hornet arrives in ten days, and the Lex/Sara duo really need that first upgrade to be competitive IMO. I hope it was a good decision.

I tend to skip the first upgrade that removes the 8" guns without any compensation than 1.1" AA guns because of the annoying habit of my carriers to get into surface fights. Those 8" guns at least mean that the two carriers have a chance at self-defence.

If surface battles happened as often in real life as they do in games, the US would have probably built the alternative to the Midway that was armed with dual-purpose 6" turrets and single purpose 6" guns just to give them more punch.

I'd have to look at the upgrade, but I think the first one gives the carriers radar, which I value highly. AA capability is second to me. I try to keep my carriers out of gunfights, and if they have one they better have some big gun help. The devs have in the past (and I cannot find the thread to save my life) said that Air TFs encountering Surface TFs have an increased random roll of avoiding combat versus a Surface meeting a Surface. I've seen this in AI games. It's not full armor, but it does push the stats a bit.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: MateDow

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

9) After much thought and visualization of buyer's remorse, I let Lex and Saratoga go into upgrade cycle at San Diego. The UNDERDOG twin carriers should be enough by themselves, Hornet arrives in ten days, and the Lex/Sara duo really need that first upgrade to be competitive IMO. I hope it was a good decision.

I tend to skip the first upgrade that removes the 8" guns without any compensation than 1.1" AA guns because of the annoying habit of my carriers to get into surface fights. Those 8" guns at least mean that the two carriers have a chance at self-defence.

If surface battles happened as often in real life as they do in games, the US would have probably built the alternative to the Midway that was armed with dual-purpose 6" turrets and single purpose 6" guns just to give them more punch.

I'd have to look at the upgrade, but I think the first one gives the carriers radar, which I value highly. AA capability is second to me. I try to keep my carriers out of gunfights, and if they have one they better have some big gun help. The devs have in the past (and I cannot find the thread to save my life) said that Air TFs encountering Surface TFs have an increased random roll of avoiding combat versus a Surface meeting a Surface. I've seen this in AI games. It's not full armor, but it does push the stats a bit.
From my sandbox games where I set up carrier VS surface engagements, I can confirm that the surface TF gets few shots at the CVs. Firstly the CV TF does immediately try to break off the engagement so it does not last long. Secondly, the CV escorts sacrifice themselves defending the CVs, so most of the shooting is between them and the SCTF.
Still, it doesn't take many 8" or larger hits to cause a carrier a lot of hurt, particularly if there is a FSE or ASE achieved. Torpedo hits are even better, but extremely rare on the CVs.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

In my AI games I'd say that about half the time the TF encounter animation screen appears, and the first text line is the Air TF disengaging with no shots fired. As you say, the rest it's normally a surface vs surface fight with the carriers watching, then disengagement. I've never tried it with some slow escorts mixed into the Air TF. That might lenghten the encounter.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by obvert »

It is possible to engage CV groups (unfortunately) but probably harder with the fast Allied CVs and their quick escorts. Still, if you flood an area, use up their ops points n the night/day phases and manage to get something big to engage late, something like this might happen ...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3101451&mpage=1&key=

Escorts might not do as much as you'd hope to fight off a surface attack once the running is over.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by MateDow »

I have definitely had my carriers engaged and manage to escape, but I have also successfully attacked the Japanese carriers with cruisers. Of course, this is against the AI, so it tends to put the carriers where I can get at them with surface task forces, but it does still happen.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: MateDow

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

9) After much thought and visualization of buyer's remorse, I let Lex and Saratoga go into upgrade cycle at San Diego. The UNDERDOG twin carriers should be enough by themselves, Hornet arrives in ten days, and the Lex/Sara duo really need that first upgrade to be competitive IMO. I hope it was a good decision.

I tend to skip the first upgrade that removes the 8" guns without any compensation than 1.1" AA guns because of the annoying habit of my carriers to get into surface fights. Those 8" guns at least mean that the two carriers have a chance at self-defence.

If surface battles happened as often in real life as they do in games, the US would have probably built the alternative to the Midway that was armed with dual-purpose 6" turrets and single purpose 6" guns just to give them more punch.

I'd have to look at the upgrade, but I think the first one gives the carriers radar, which I value highly. AA capability is second to me. I try to keep my carriers out of gunfights, and if they have one they better have some big gun help. The devs have in the past (and I cannot find the thread to save my life) said that Air TFs encountering Surface TFs have an increased random roll of avoiding combat versus a Surface meeting a Surface. I've seen this in AI games. It's not full armor, but it does push the stats a bit.

I could dig up other threads but this one will suffice for your needs.

tm.asp?m=2017354&mpage=1&key=intercept&#2020181

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: obvert

It is possible to engage CV groups (unfortunately) but probably harder with the fast Allied CVs and their quick escorts. Still, if you flood an area, use up their ops points n the night/day phases and manage to get something big to engage late, something like this might happen ...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3101451&mpage=1&key=

Escorts might not do as much as you'd hope to fight off a surface attack once the running is over.

It can happen of course. The rolls are random and even if the odds are bettered they are still odds. I think a lot of this debate goes against the individual player's attitude toward carriers. Some AE players worship them, won't go to the store without them in their pocket. Others see them as tools with purposes, but also big liabilities attached. Depending on where a player lies on this spectrum they will risk more or less to "get" one. I read your AAR battle, and I would not have done what your opponent did in risking CAs and the Nevada to get some shots in. In one AI game with surprise off I did heavy sorties on the KB as he did and the KB fell back, launched, and devastated my surface forces on the seocnd day of the war.

AE is a great game because it lets each player choose his odds to a great extent.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: MateDow




I tend to skip the first upgrade that removes the 8" guns without any compensation than 1.1" AA guns because of the annoying habit of my carriers to get into surface fights. Those 8" guns at least mean that the two carriers have a chance at self-defence.

If surface battles happened as often in real life as they do in games, the US would have probably built the alternative to the Midway that was armed with dual-purpose 6" turrets and single purpose 6" guns just to give them more punch.

I'd have to look at the upgrade, but I think the first one gives the carriers radar, which I value highly. AA capability is second to me. I try to keep my carriers out of gunfights, and if they have one they better have some big gun help. The devs have in the past (and I cannot find the thread to save my life) said that Air TFs encountering Surface TFs have an increased random roll of avoiding combat versus a Surface meeting a Surface. I've seen this in AI games. It's not full armor, but it does push the stats a bit.

I could dig up other threads but this one will suffice for your needs.

tm.asp?m=2017354&mpage=1&key=intercept?

Alfred

That's a great thread. It may be the one I'm trying to find where Don (the dev) somewhat discussed interception odds. Although I'm also remembering Michael saying something on it at least a year later.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: obvert

It is possible to engage CV groups (unfortunately) but probably harder with the fast Allied CVs and their quick escorts. Still, if you flood an area, use up their ops points n the night/day phases and manage to get something big to engage late, something like this might happen ...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3101451&mpage=1&key=

Escorts might not do as much as you'd hope to fight off a surface attack once the running is over.

It can happen of course. The rolls are random and even if the odds are bettered they are still odds. I think a lot of this debate goes against the individual player's attitude toward carriers. Some AE players worship them, won't go to the store without them in their pocket. Others see them as tools with purposes, but also big liabilities attached. Depending on where a player lies on this spectrum they will risk more or less to "get" one. I read your AAR battle, and I would not have done what your opponent did in risking CAs and the Nevada to get some shots in. In one AI game with surprise off I did heavy sorties on the KB as he did and the KB fell back, launched, and devastated my surface forces on the seocnd day of the war.

AE is a great game because it lets each player choose his odds to a great extent.

Exactly.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by witpqs »

A couple (or more) months back someone posted basically that catching carriers was near impossible and I posted a whole bunch of surface group intercepts of carriers from just one PBM game. Do they have better chances to get away because of doctrine as programmed into the game engine, sure. Can they be caught and destroyed, oh yes.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

A couple (or more) months back someone posted basically that catching carriers was near impossible and I posted a whole bunch of surface group intercepts of carriers from just one PBM game. Do they have better chances to get away because of doctrine as programmed into the game engine, sure. Can they be caught and destroyed, oh yes.

Like most things in the game it's a matter of what you're willing to pay.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

As my China/Burma strategy is a bit odd, and they interlock, I thought a screenshot from the pre-turn March 3 map would help as a road marker.



Image

East-to-west:

1) Chungking is tucked in nicely. Units upgrading and filling out, Forts working on 8. Supply levels hover near stability, but too low. Once Forts are done this will be a priority. Will leave a strong garrison at Chengtu to guard the input of the yellow road through the mountains, and a 1-stack on the west at Neikiang to allow Resources to flow to Chungking.

2) Moving west we see the last of the road marchers both in the mountains (along with road-severing "guards" camped out in the high country), and two decent-sized stacks heading for the low mountains being pursued west of Kweiyang. At Kunming they will go Strat to rest and get ahead of the pursuit. After that I'm done with railroads in China for several years.

3) The string continues along the roads all the way to Lashio. Supply is rare at waystations like Paoshan. Once everything is to Lashio or better all other bases east will be abandoned. Lashio will have a very storng garrison to guard Mandalay's flank. A frontier fort. Probably some flankers will be put out in rough terrain to hold off encirclement in bad tank country. Coming across, Japan will not capture cheap supplies. If it wants to hit Lashio it will need to bring its own.

4) At Lashio everybody gets on the choo-choo again and goes to a base where the choo-choo does. Either in the Mandalay group, up and over the river, or preps to go to India for garrison relief. At this point most are going to do the last. The Mandalay group is well defended now, and at the limits of its supply carrying capacity, even pre-monsoon.

5) Taung Gyi is strongly held, with more coming. The Japanese stack to the west is 11 LCUs with tanks, now retreating SW. The Chinese corps which was in a block to the SW on the gray road is heading NW to re-block there and sit against the river.

6) NE, near Myitkyina, Chinese LCUs can be seen jumping across the jungle for Kohima, then to Dimapur, then railroad to India.

7) Imphal has 7000 supply now, and is rapidly building a medium-large AF. The dot base on the railroad to its NW is being built as well.

8) The supply sea-road into Chittagong can be seen here, leading from Calcutta, but also Madras and Colombo. Chittagong has a strong garrison.

9) Armor is moving down the coast road for Akyab, to be joined by infantry from Chittagong as well as overland Chinese units seen here. There are unseen Japanese LCUs in the jungle near the river crossing NW of Prome. I think the Allies will win this race for Akyab. Further units are detailed to Cox's Bazaar. Akyab is recieving about 7000 supply now in a vacant base, to be used by the defenders on the way.

10) Port Blair is at Forts 3, and has an AF nearly at 3 as well. It has light patrol and bombers. It has a strong Aussie division in defense, and several engineer units. Supplies are about 23,000 and increasing from Colombo.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

Game Admin Stuff

Mike and I are in an e-mail exchange I initiated. Several rounds so far; we're coming to some new internal "rules" for the game pacing. Part of my objective in this PBEM is to push into areas not normally discussed, or at least discussed in AARs, with a view to proposing ways to make the PBEM experience better. One was the no-HR stance. Another was the "play the design; play for VPs" stance. And recently it has been about time management and game pace.

Mike has a very busy life; I do not. He committed to 3-5 turns a week and has faithfully kept to that. Recently though I have sensed--and he said once in a transmission e-mail--that he is rushed in doing the turn and not able to get everything done. Very often I get the movie at bedtime Central time, and the turn the next morning around 7AM his time, which suggests he is dashing it off on the way out the door to work. I OTOH have the luxury of an entire morning to look at Tracker and do my side with no time constraints. We all know that AE rewards attention to detail. And I don't think it's fair I have so much more time for my attention.

So I proposed we set a time limit on both sides for turn prep. We both have phones with countdown timers. He proposed two hours and I agreed. I said I could go lower. This morning, after sleeping on it, I added a suggestion that we try pre-scheduled weekend "turn storms" where he would notify me in advance, say on Friday, if he would be free at specific times on a specific weekend day, and we would do as many turns as possible in 45-minute cylces: 30 for the turn, 10 for Tracker, 5 for the replay. I would do the AARs after the storm from archived text files.

Mike expressed that his biggest worry is that our pace will not allow the game to finish in any sort of reasonable real life time. He proposed going to 2-day cycles. I would prefer not to do this for several game mechanic reasons (carrier battles with reacts being primary.) But I too would like the game to play faster. Three turns a week, which has only happened rarely, is too slow for me to keep focus and flow. While he can't guarantee that there won't be 3-turn weeks--and I fully understand that--he too would like more speed.

Additionally but tangentially, I asked that we revisit the time limit issue on 1/1/43 and again on 1/1/44 given the huge spikes in Allied units needing to be pushed around. I said in effect that the Allies need more time just to stay in the same place in the out years. I think such a re-visit will work.

I'll post when we get a resolution on all this. I just wanted to openly discuss it in case this is an issue in any readers' PBEMs.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

March 3, 1942

Thrust and Parry

A gathering storm type of day. Nothing earth-shattering.

1) USN subs have four encounters with IJN units and convoys with no hits. Wakkanai x2, Shikuka, Cam Ranh Bay. Have to keep plugging. So far there have been far fewer surface gun battles than I recall in AI games. Perhaps I need radar and my memory is too rosy. Radar upgrades are now less than a month away. I always waffle on whether to hold subs back at PH for, say, ten days to get into the upgrade rather than send them out on yet another radar-less patrol.

I have also gotten to the point logistically and tactically where I'm comfortable using Midway in its historic role of top-off fueler. I won't put a tender there yet, but outgoing boats will waypoint there to fill up and extend their HI station-keeping. The first two fleet boats will pass through tomorrow.

2) There is no land attack at Singers, but the air press cranks up another notch. Eight large attacks, seven of them bombing, hit the base. The AF is crushed as are a number of supply points, but again the AA takes stiff retribution. I think Mike believes he must take the base on the next try. Failure to do so at the cost of crippled engineers will delay second-phase objectives into April or beyond. To that end, and with his demonstrated meticulous preparation before major attacks, I now expect at least two more days of prep before the attack, which I think will be a Shock. That's my money there on the table, folks. [8D]

3) Palembang also gets three large attacks which damage patrol planes. P. has no CAP at the moment. The bombing is sufficient to prevent fort building. It has been stalled for at least ten days now.

4) The IJA stack is massing in Clark's hex. This base might hold one day (Forts 3, a tiny bit of organic supply), but might not. Its AF is bombed today again.

5) Allies hit back in B-17 strikes on Singkawang's AF, 2 more Oil hits on Samarinda, and harrassment by Banshees on the small garrison at Madang on NG's north coast. A small P-38 sweep on Djambi and another small Banshee stirke on JB's AF do no damage and incur no losses.

6) UNDERDOG continues without apparent detection.

7) Five APDs are sent to Oz to aid in ASW as well as, perhaps, the defense of Java/Sumatra. For underway refueling they are accompanied by five fast xAKs carrying fuel for Sydney. This is the first west-bound Allied convoy of the war. Over forty TFs are now running off-map between UK/Canada/EC and CT.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Alfred »

I would not be quite so quick in abandoning everything east of Lashio.

1. The Chinese redoubt Paoshan/Tsyuyang/Kunming is not necessarily doomed to end up in supply deficit. The airbridge Ledo-Paoshan is a better is better than Ledo-Chengtu. The big differences being shorter range (less operational losses plus all American transport aircraft can make the run) and you can also fly out of other Indian bases into Paoshan.

2. You should look up your reinforcement schedule and note what arrives in the redoubt. Then factor in the ramifications of having lost the arrival location.

3. It is a long ship voyage from from Shanghai to Rangoon. Makes life a lot easier for the IJA if it can just march through the redoubt.

4. Any sort of Chinese garrison in the redoubt threatens to breakout in 1943 towards the sea at Haiphong. Japan needs to be watchful of that because it doesn't get those 4 Vietmin divs in 1943.

Am not saying you should fight to the death in the redoubt but am saying giving it away for free might not be the best decision.

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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I would not be quite so quick in abandoning everything east of Lashio.

1. The Chinese redoubt Paoshan/Tsyuyang/Kunming is not necessarily doomed to end up in supply deficit. The airbridge Ledo-Paoshan is a better is better than Ledo-Chengtu. The big differences being shorter range (less operational losses plus all American transport aircraft can make the run) and you can also fly out of other Indian bases into Paoshan.

2. You should look up your reinforcement schedule and note what arrives in the redoubt. Then factor in the ramifications of having lost the arrival location.

3. It is a long ship voyage from from Shanghai to Rangoon. Makes life a lot easier for the IJA if it can just march through the redoubt.

4. Any sort of Chinese garrison in the redoubt threatens to breakout in 1943 towards the sea at Haiphong. Japan needs to be watchful of that because it doesn't get those 4 Vietmin divs in 1943.

Am not saying you should fight to the death in the redoubt but am saying giving it away for free might not be the best decision.

Alfred
By all means even if/when the Chungking plain is lost it is worthwhile holding the road to Burma as Alfred notes. However difficult it will be to hold, it will be waaay more difficult to retake it. And in IJ hands it provides a very easy route to Burma for Japanese troops.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I would not be quite so quick in abandoning everything east of Lashio.

1. The Chinese redoubt Paoshan/Tsyuyang/Kunming is not necessarily doomed to end up in supply deficit. The airbridge Ledo-Paoshan is a better is better than Ledo-Chengtu. The big differences being shorter range (less operational losses plus all American transport aircraft can make the run) and you can also fly out of other Indian bases into Paoshan.

2. You should look up your reinforcement schedule and note what arrives in the redoubt. Then factor in the ramifications of having lost the arrival location.

3. It is a long ship voyage from from Shanghai to Rangoon. Makes life a lot easier for the IJA if it can just march through the redoubt.

4. Any sort of Chinese garrison in the redoubt threatens to breakout in 1943 towards the sea at Haiphong. Japan needs to be watchful of that because it doesn't get those 4 Vietmin divs in 1943.

Am not saying you should fight to the death in the redoubt but am saying giving it away for free might not be the best decision.

Alfred

Excellent points, Alfred. I have a corps and an HQ at Paoshan holding it while the Chinese horde passes. I could easily stop some of the latter horde. I have not looked at the arrival queue.

I had intended to move south into northern Indo-China in late 1942 if possible. I have never much accounted for the Vietnamese militia-type reinforcments; I probably should look at what's in them.

My general, very general, idea in western China is to throw chairs and tables in front of him if he wants to come that way, but not to tie down so much Chinese force that I sacrifice the main objective, which is to get China nearer to supply and to relieve the Indian Army to fight. Ledo right now is, of course, a non-factor with 18k supply and three very weak transport units. That will change. Your points about destination I had not considered. I was thinking Chengtu in a "traditional" manner to help Chungking build/survive the supply deficit which will come when the fuel runs out--which is pretty soon. The flow from Lanchow is blocked many times over.

Good ideas to analyze. Thanks.
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Bullwinkle58
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

Game Admin Stuff II

E-mails passing, some resolution reached for now.

Mike also slept on it and decided that he does not want to use a time limit right now. His feeling is the economy management in the early game is too important and time consuming to be held to a set time period per turn.

He also said he has played 2-day turns in previous PBEM and knows there are severe trade-offs. He is not advocating for this now, but wanted to offer it if I am feeling constrained by the game's pace. It's really the only way to markedly accelerate given his schedule doesn't have flex.

We are re-jiggering turn expectations during the week to better fit his schedule. And we will try to do some weekend multi-flips to accelerate, and plan for them in a more formal and proactive manner. Many weekends, even without multis, he will get a turn in both days.

Overall this exercise was useful.
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RE: Nothing Up My Sleeve: Magical Moose Tricks--Bullwinkle58 vs.1EyedJacks

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
By all means even if/when the Chungking plain is lost it is worthwhile holding the road to Burma as Alfred notes. However difficult it will be to hold, it will be waaay more difficult to retake it. And in IJ hands it provides a very easy route to Burma for Japanese troops.

I'm unclear how much supply Japan can effectively pull into and through the low mountains around Paoshan. I have tried to set up defenses in the Himalayas west of Chengtu, but Paoshan is the way I'd come if I were him. Can he operate and fight, say, 6-7 divisions at and past Paoshan towards Lashio?
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