WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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netjam99
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WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by netjam99 »

For my career I every few years have to go through some online training courses. Some if I were young again and worried about such things actually can be used as credits with some universities.

Its a near run thing if AE or those training courses require more study to my way of thinking. I have found myself constantly studying the manual, reading AARs and scouring the forum for tibbits of knowledge. That does not mention reading two History books and some fluff like W.E.B Griffins novels. Have two more books on order from Amazon. About a month of play and study, still I am no doubt a very lowly plebe.

That has me thinking the WitP AE curriculum for sure would equal a second level history course covering in the WWII in the Pacific. Then as a bonus the equivalent of a introductory course in logistics...perhaps the following?

HIST 202 War in the Pacific
LOGT 102 Logistics Management in Pacific Theatre


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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

in time spent, it is more like a PhD
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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by Alfred »

Nice thought but the reality is different.

There is too much abstraction in the game which allows most players to do things which are just not possible in real life. Players often quibble over really small details being not what they perceive to be historically accurate (invariably displaying their own misjudgements) but fail to pay proper attention to real world considerations if doing so would impede their "fun".

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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by mike scholl 1 »

Alfred got it right..., but the real learning experiance comes from making that discovery. Start playing something as all-consuming as WITP and you just naturally are drawn to reading up on the subject. If you think of it as the ultimate "study motivation" you're probably as close to the truth as we aare likely to get. [;)]
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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by dr.hal »

At the risk of being drawn and quartered I don't fully agree with Alfred. The game can act as a real trigger for more in-depth study and if one tags some research assignments on to this, then it could be argued that some real learning is going on. All writing and research of events is an abstraction. Some much better than others. So if this aids in the accumulation of knowledge, then it can be seen as a form of education. I recall playing my first board game "Midway" and this lead me to read Walter Lord's book. The rest is history (pun intended). Maybe Matrix Games should run this by the ACE for a review! Hal
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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: netjam99
That has me thinking the WitP AE curriculum for sure would equal a second level history course covering in the WWII in the Pacific. Then as a bonus the equivalent of a introductory course in logistics...perhaps the following?

HIST 202 War in the Pacific
LOGT 102 Logistics Management in Pacific Theatre
I think netjam99 has the right of it. Although I might give the logistics course a 202.

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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

At the risk of being drawn and quartered I don't fully agree with Alfred. The game can act as a real trigger for more in-depth study and if one tags some research assignments on to this, then it could be argued that some real learning is going on. All writing and research of events is an abstraction. Some much better than others. So if this aids in the accumulation of knowledge, then it can be seen as a form of education. I recall playing my first board game "Midway" and this lead me to read Walter Lord's book. The rest is history (pun intended). Maybe Matrix Games should run this by the ACE for a review! Hal

The key problem is that as a self study course, AE allows for very wrong conclusions to be drawn. This is evidenced all the time by the silly propositions made by many players who fail to maintain perspective.

If on the other hand you are contemplating having a course presenter who will mark harshly down the fantasies which so many players actually believe constitute real history/possibilities, then yes the game would have some value as an educational tool. IOW, an external discipline would need to be imposed. AE is a great game but it does need that external discipline otherwise too many draw the wrong conclusions.

It is well and good to view something as a good catalyst for further personal development. However when one is talking about tertiary level improvement, very few people can proceed without a structured approach and feedback imposed externally. Feeding one's prejudices is rarely the way to develop one's mind.

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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by Oberst_Klink »

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: netjam99
That has me thinking the WitP AE curriculum for sure would equal a second level history course covering in the WWII in the Pacific. Then as a bonus the equivalent of a introductory course in logistics...perhaps the following?

HIST 202 War in the Pacific
LOGT 102 Logistics Management in Pacific Theatre
I think netjam99 has the right of it. Although I might give the logistics course a 202.

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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by netjam99 »

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I think Alfred is just the professor we are looking for to impose structure and shine the cold harsh light of prospective upon the curriculum.


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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by linrom »

I strongly disagree with Alfred. Matrix has made this game into ahistorical mumble jumble. This is one of the reasons why so many players have to spend countless hours messing around with the editor trying to undo to what Matrix did--to make this game more historical and playable.

I have to SECOND guess and research almost all of the IJA and IJN OOB because I do not trust the game. This is not what I indented to do. But yes my research work is equivalent to a college course on Japanese WWII history because of Matrix game design---they're like Hollywood producers who gave us such classics as their own version of Battle of the Bulge.

But foremeost the most astounding short sided decision to me that Matrix made is to do as little coding as possible and let the game engine do the rest( the game engine does not have any AI capability, it relies on dice rolls, good grief)--that's why one can't achieve anything resembling historical accuracy.

So if you want history, you have to look up what really happened and hence you get an education in Pacific War II.
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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by Bullwinkle58 »

ORIGINAL: linrom

I strongly disagree with Alfred. Matrix has made this game into ahistorical mumble jumble. This is one of the reasons why so many players have to spend countless hours messing around with the editor trying to undo to what Matrix did--to make this game more historical and playable.

I have to SECOND guess and research almost all of the IJA and IJN OOB because I do not trust the game. This is not what I indented to do. But yes my research work is equivalent to a college course on Japanese WWII history because of Matrix game design---they're like Hollywood producers who gave us such classics as their own version of Battle of the Bulge.

But foremeost the most astounding short sided decision to me that Matrix made is to do as little coding as possible and let the game engine do the rest( the game engine does not have any AI capability, it relies on dice rolls, good grief)--that's why one can't achieve anything resembling historical accuracy.

So if you want history, you have to look up what really happened and hence you get an education in Pacific War II.

If you want history, put a sock on it and RESEARCH what the mandate of the AE team was. It never ceases to amaze that newbies with 22 whole posts come on here to "correct" the devs and players who have over a decade with the engine.

You're in your first week of kindergarten lecturing (in some cases literally) Ph.Ds.
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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by dr.hal »

When I first saw the electronic version of the game (remember I saw the board version a LONG time ago) I did think it would be a good "strategic simulation" game for a college course. And yes Alfred, I did see it as very much needing a "reality checker" involved (much like most wargames have umpires). There are certain aspects of this game that are normally not simulated to any degree or depth. The abstraction of supply is a good example. This game at least makes an attempt at both tactical and strategic supply, something most games totally ignore. It also attempts (albeit poorly) to replicate discord between commands WITHIN a side, let alone between sides. This aspects would make an interesting simulation over the course of a semester or two. So I can see value in it not just for the stimulation it triggers in those of us who follow up with real research, but also to reveal to players the importance of supply, upgrades, wear and tear, etc. that most games ignore. Does it reflect reality, no, of course not, I wasn't suggesting that it does. But could it give players a feel for a strategic narrative, I think it could. I would love to take a relatively small class, say about 12-15 and divide them up and give them commands and allow only paper communications, etc. I would also throw in umpire controlled caveats to the play. I think it could be fun AND instructive, a rare combination in college classrooms (electronic or face to face) today.
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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by jeffk3510 »

ORIGINAL: linrom

I strongly disagree with Alfred. Matrix has made this game into ahistorical mumble jumble. This is one of the reasons why so many players have to spend countless hours messing around with the editor trying to undo to what Matrix did--to make this game more historical and playable.

I have to SECOND guess and research almost all of the IJA and IJN OOB because I do not trust the game. This is not what I indented to do. But yes my research work is equivalent to a college course on Japanese WWII history because of Matrix game design---they're like Hollywood producers who gave us such classics as their own version of Battle of the Bulge.

But foremeost the most astounding short sided decision to me that Matrix made is to do as little coding as possible and let the game engine do the rest( the game engine does not have any AI capability, it relies on dice rolls, good grief)--that's why one can't achieve anything resembling historical accuracy.

So if you want history, you have to look up what really happened and hence you get an education in Pacific War II.

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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

When I first saw the electronic version of the game (remember I saw the board version a LONG time ago) I did think it would be a good "strategic simulation" game for a college course ...

Wasn't there a classroom course that evolved into a strategic sim called "The Calm and the Storm"?

The game could even be graded from a computer printout of the student's progress in managing a Euro nation during WW II.
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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by JeffroK »

No wonder we dont get newbies, I wonder if a potential sale went out the door.

I cant see what he said was wrong, disagreeing with Alfred isnt new and as he isnt party to the limits that Matrix put on the devs has a fair point about the accuracy at vanilla level.

No blame to the devs, they did what they got "paid" for.

Played properly as an historical exercise, you can learn a lot more from WITPAE than from most books.

Its easier to see the whys and wherefors of military decisions as easily as you can wonder at the folly of others.

The game fails in its lack of politics, and wasnt designed to cover them.

As one who thought he knew a lot about the PTO I have learned a lot more after getting sucked into the WITP world.

Many have stated they had no idea about A or B and their knowledge of the region was non existant, horizons have broadened and they may have a better understanding of events and where they fitted in.
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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by Canoerebel »

Huge AE fan here, but Alfred's large point is right. This game is a game, not a college-level course.

There are things I have learned through the game, primarily (1) names of units; (2) geography; and (3) the huge importance of planning and logistics (in fact, no college course could teach the latter - only real life experience could, with a monster game like AE coming next in line).

I will say the geography lesson is pretty intense. I'm sure I didn't know the wherabouts of places like Ndeni, Port Headland, Mersing, and Lanchow until I started this monstrous and magnificent game.
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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by DivePac88 »

Yes it is a game, differently a wargame and nothing more. Admittedly it is very complex, but that doesn't make it college level. I think that Mrs Divepac is very complex also, but that doesn't make her a Professor. [;)]
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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

When I first saw the electronic version of the game (remember I saw the board version a LONG time ago) I did think it would be a good "strategic simulation" game for a college course. And yes Alfred, I did see it as very much needing a "reality checker" involved (much like most wargames have umpires). There are certain aspects of this game that are normally not simulated to any degree or depth. The abstraction of supply is a good example. This game at least makes an attempt at both tactical and strategic supply, something most games totally ignore. It also attempts (albeit poorly) to replicate discord between commands WITHIN a side, let alone between sides. This aspects would make an interesting simulation over the course of a semester or two. So I can see value in it not just for the stimulation it triggers in those of us who follow up with real research, but also to reveal to players the importance of supply, upgrades, wear and tear, etc. that most games ignore. Does it reflect reality, no, of course not, I wasn't suggesting that it does. But could it give players a feel for a strategic narrative, I think it could. I would love to take a relatively small class, say about 12-15 and divide them up and give them commands and allow only paper communications, etc. I would also throw in umpire controlled caveats to the play. I think it could be fun AND instructive, a rare combination in college classrooms (electronic or face to face) today.

I'll go with Dr. Hal here. Having taught all manner of college courses-from the course coordinator to the 'participant' level, WiTP:AE could easily fit into the mold of such a course. What he describes would be an excellent course offering. I'd sign on as JFB associate professor. [&o]
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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by ilovestrategy »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel



I will say the geography lesson is pretty intense. I'm sure I didn't know the wherabouts of places like Ndeni, Port Headland, Mersing, and Lanchow until I started this monstrous and magnificent game.


Heck, I am married to a Filipina, speak and write Tagalog, and just in a the last two weeks as the Nips rampage the Philippines(that's a touchy subject sense I don't know what I'm doing [:D] ), I'm learning more about Philippine geography.
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RE: WitP AE Equivalent to a college course?

Post by spence »

I'd sign on as JFB associate professor.

That would be a problem then. A JFB would do little to discourage JFB fantasies such as the most fundamental fantasy of all: "all I have to do to break the stalemate in China is start a war with the rest of the world".

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